270 | Turning Curiosity Into A Superpower For Your Business W/ Carl Lubbe

Jun 22

[00:00:25] Chaz Wolfe: What's up everybody? I'm Chaz Wolf gathering the King's podcast. I'm your host today. I've got Carl Lubbe here on the King stage, my brother. How we doing?

[00:00:36] Carl Lubbe: I'm doing really good. I'm doing better now. After that introduction, I might need you to get, the recording on my voicemail. Yeah. I need all that energy.

When somebody's mad that they've missed me and they're having to leave a voicemail, they need all that Chaz

[00:00:47] Chaz Wolfe: coming at them. Yes. Like I told you before we hit the recording button, I had to look away from your name on the screen to say your last name properly, but I did it

[00:00:56] Carl Lubbe: right. You got it a hundred percent.

Boom.

[00:00:59] Chaz Wolfe: So much so that you want the

[00:01:00] Carl Lubbe: recording on your phone. I do, I do. I want the energy, the proper pronunciation of a South African last name, which is, I mean, impressive for a guy from the Midwest, your afr. Getting tough notch.

[00:01:11] Chaz Wolfe: Well done. See, there we go. I'm already, a growing individual here today.

Thanks to you, Carl. I, I am, so excited for this conversation. I told you that as soon as we got on, I'm excited for all of our podcast guests, but this one is gonna be so unique. Carl, tell us what kind of business that you have.

[00:01:28] Carl Lubbe: I've got two of them cuz I'm a dummy. And I decided, hey, if you can do one thing, why not do two of them and figure that out?

That's fine. no, but I love them. I've got a, one is a branding agency called Tall Tale Brands, and our tagline in that one is, you've got a fascinating story. Let us help you tell it better. And the other one is a coaching and consulting company in which we focus on executive leadership and team development all around this idea that curiosity is a superpower.

And so we call ourselves curiosity

[00:01:59] Chaz Wolfe: coach. A curiosity coach. If that doesn't make the listener curious about what the heck you do, I don't know. What does, I told you this right, right. When we first got on the recording or, before the recording, I mean, Is that I've used this phrase, be curious. For nearly 20 years as I've been teaching, really people communication and psychology, but inside of the context of sales and sales process.

Mm-hmm. But, you're right, curiosity is absolutely a superpower and not necessarily just God-given, like yes, I believe probably some are maybe more bestowed than others, but this is a muscle that we can. We can work, right? Yeah.

[00:02:38] Carl Lubbe: That's even why the language for us is slightly different because the language of be curious is this, you know, it's a beautiful kind of zen idea, but like you said, there's some, intimation in that that oh, you are curious, so just be curious.

And for us, we really think that. Anybody can get curious if you want to develop the muscle. So even like our website, we were lucky enough that it wasn't taken is get more curious is this idea of how do you develop an everyday life with your spouse, with your kids, your friends, your businesses, everyday interactions of, oh, okay.

Before I get there, what would it look like to get more curious about any one of these people, especially those honestly that you have the most relationship with, cuz the ones you start to have the least amount of curiosity

[00:03:22] Chaz Wolfe: about. Yeah. Which leads me right into my follow up question here, because for me, curiosity is so tied to being interested or caring.

And I don't know your, your kind of underneath philosophy on this. So I'm either setting myself up for an agreement or maybe a little bit of a charged conversation. I don't know. So we're doing it live right here. Yeah. But for years, I, I've, I, you know, inside of this context of sales, I.

There is this stinky, you know, like, ugh, about manipulation and sales and convincing someone or manipulating somebody. And when you have a, a mindset of being interested or being curious or being, Like, I just care about this individual. I see the other human and in sales. I'm trying to figure out what they need, like genuinely what they need.

And if I have it, then I put those two things together and then, and we move on. If I don't, then I refer them to someone else that can help them. That's just a very genuine, like, I want to help, I wanna be a good servant. And so in that, if I'm curious, I'm actually expressing my interest. And what's really important to them.

Mm-hmm. What would you say to that? Is there agreement here? Do have I only scratched the surface. I'm probably sure you've probably gone way deeper than this.

[00:04:32] Carl Lubbe: Well, no, no, I, I think you opened a really interesting idea because again, the best sales people that you've ever met, cuz I do some coaching with sales teams as well.

The best sales people you've ever met, have never felt like they've sold you anything. What they've done is they've jumped into a problem with you, shoulder to shoulder, and they go, huh? I wonder if we did this or this or this or this, and all of a sudden you're like, hold on. Is this person lifting weight with me?

Like the thing that felt like a hundred pounds before? Yeah. Now feels like 50 pounds or less because they've joined in. And so the thing that I tell salespeople and I tell humans in general is in order to be interesting, you have you have to be interested. And this is also true of people who find themselves maybe going, oh man, I'm, I've joined a new company, or I'm looking for new social circles, or I'm joining a new church, or I'm going to a cocktail party, and they're going, I have social anxiety.

And I'll tell them, listen, all of those things are understandable. Some of those things are psychological, some of 'em are social, some of them are chemical. This is why, you know, we are whole humans. There's no one answer to everything. So it might be going to a therapist, it might be going to, you know, a psychiatrist who can prescribe something.

But I would tell them the first thing that you want to do is take the focus off you. And think about somebody else in the room. And what I tell people all the time is my life mission is I'm on a rescue mission for Chaz's inner eight year old. So in any meeting that I'm going into, and I met with the c e o of a Fortune 100 company the other day when I walked into the meeting, you know, people talk about, you know, tricks.

for public speaking, imagine them naked. I, that's awkward to me. I've, I don't want to imagine somebody in that meeting. I don't wanna do that. I'm good. Thank you. What I actually do is, before I get to the meeting, I go, I wonder what this person was like as an eight year old. What were they like as an eight year old boy?

It will go, what were they interested in? What were they fascinated by? And by the way, the best way to kind of create pretty instant compassion for the other person is imagine all the ways their life didn't turn out the way they wanted it to. From eight to now. That's right. All the places where it broke.

And if you can do that, when you walk into the thing, all of a sudden you're like, oh my gosh, I have such an incredible amount of compassion and interest, compassion for and interest in this person. That it's weird. I'm not thinking about me anymore.

[00:06:58] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The root of that, is either a selfish or a selfless, perspective.

and I You said it beautifully, when we're self-focused rather than others focused. Yeah. There's a whole lot of pressure on you being the life of the party or being enough or whatever else that one might think of in. Being anxious about a party in that example. But when you think about the other people there and then you took it to another level there, I just really love that about the childhood.

But then seeing before you meet them, of course you don't know all the exact moments where it broke, but assuming that it has, cuz Carl ha has your life broke at all. Mine, mine has a couple times. Okay, so, so if guys like

[00:07:47] Carl Lubbe: you and I Sure. Yeah. They're having a human experience. Something is broken in their life at some point.

Yeah. And

[00:07:53] Chaz Wolfe: so, so before the conversation even begins, now I'm wondering how it broke. What that leads me to is curiosity, which then usually for a good salesperson and or probably a good executive, is. Questions because I'm curious, because

[00:08:10] Carl Lubbe: I'm interested

[00:08:10] Chaz Wolfe: in your story. Yeah. It leads me to ask good questions.

Would you agree?

[00:08:15] Carl Lubbe: A hundred percent? And I think you hit on the last part of that is I am, I am no longer interested in simple answers. I'm fascinated by great questions. Yeah,

[00:08:26] Chaz Wolfe: it's good. It's good. Well, , I'm gonna try my darnedest here today, Carl, to ask you some fascinating questions. Oh, hopefully, I'm excited.

Hopefully, hopefully you get to sit in this seat where not very often people are asking you a bunch of good questions, and so buckle up, pal. Okay.

[00:08:42] Carl Lubbe: Hold on. Hold on. Click. Yeah,

[00:08:44] Chaz Wolfe: exactly. Ready? I'm ready. Okay. For, for my first one, I, I am gonna throw a hard hitting one at you, and I don't want this to be the general, like, what's your why?

Because Carl, I believe in burning desire, like a definiteness of purpose, that thinking grow Rich. Talks about napoleon Hill. I wanna know what's on the inside of Carl that is just burning. What is that?

[00:09:06] Carl Lubbe: Yeah, such a good question. So for me, it goes back to, there's a quote by Mother Teresa. She was interviewed, kind of at the end of her life and.

You've gotta think where she was in Calcutta, she saw diseases that should have no longer existed for hundreds of years. I mean, we're talking about, typhoid and even leprosy. I mean, she was loving on people whose, you know, digits were falling off. Yeah. And this, this New York Times reporter comes to do a, an a biopic piece on a and is like, man, these are some horrific conditions.

And Mother Teresa grew up wealthy. She gave up wealth to go and do this thing and says, Hey, what is, what is the worst disease that you've come across? And she said, without missing a beat, she said, loneliness. And we look at it now and there's a couple of great writers on it. One of the guys that I enjoy who's talking a lot about that these days is, Adam Grant.

Another guy is, professor Scott Galloway out of n nyu. And they talk about the pandemic or the epidemic rather, sorry, of loneliness. And part of my burning desire in the world is if I can help create. More, aptitude, greater muscle memory for curiosity. When people can kind of get out of themselves, they will become more interesting to other people and they will feel more connected and they will feel less lonely.

And the effects of loneliness are catastrophic physically, emotionally, spiritually, and mentally. we've seen this in the pandemic and what I think we also see is, yeah. People are going, I don't know how to fix this. Like, oh, I'm super connected on an app or the other. And I, listen, I love technology. I am pretty much an early adopter at anything.

The new that comes out, but only as long as it's another screwdriver or hammer or scalpel, that's used as a tool to get us to be more connected. And so the burning thing in my world is to go, how do I walk away from every encounter with another human being going? They felt more connected. They felt more seen.

And more loved in that moment so that they don't feel alone because that's the disease I think we all need to be eradicating.

[00:11:13] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, I love that. I think that, you know, gathering the Kings originally before even the podcast started as a mastermind group, and it's funny because I've had members, these are successful entrepreneurs, seven, eight, even nine figures, and.

I had to change. I did, I did a couple events, you know, super structured. I bring in like some major value. Just do, do, do, do, do, you know, structured all day long. I'm just, that's just kinda like my personality. And, what I learned actually is that they just wanted to be in an environment with other high performers and just connect.

Mm-hmm. They really didn't. It's not that they didn't want the speaker or to be able to, you know, take notes and walk away and grow. They, they wanted that. Not really. What they really, really wanted was just to be seen by someone else like them possibly dealing with the same problem or have maybe already overcome that problem and being able to throw some bags together or deep sea fish together, or you know, hike in the Blue Ridge Mountains there in Georgia.

Like they just wanted to be together, connected.

[00:12:17] Carl Lubbe: That's it. I mean, and I think the basic. Thing all humans are wired to do is one of two things. We're here to either carry pain and there's a lot of that. And just a little backstory of me, my, one of my brothers is a, functional neurologist. And so I get to cheat a lot in my work because I get to go to him and be like, Hey, I have a theory on this thing of leadership or team or community or curiosity.

Yeah. Does that make sense from a. Physiological, you know, anatomy, brain standpoint, neurological standpoint. And, there've been a couple of times he is like, no, that's not how the brain's wired. Okay, okay, let's adjust this. But one of the core principles of my life is this idea that we are wired. And I double checked with him and he said, it's true.

We're wired to either carry pain or celebrate pleasure. And the brain goes to pain. 15 times faster than it will go to pleasure. Interesting. And so part of, I think what you experienced in your mastermind is if you become a high functioning individual, when you say yes to something, I say, I'm gonna dedicate my life to this.

And you're saying no to at least five other things. Yes. And so for a lot of these men and women, as they become these high functioning individuals, They're saying no to sometimes connection and community. And this why you get a mastermind is go other like-minded individuals because they accidentally fool your path.

It's pretty isolated. Yeah. And so like you said, when they get in that room, they're like, hold on here. People who understand the pain that I've gone through so they can carry it in a way. And also I don't have to mute my win. Because I'm making somebody else feel bad who's never experienced that and be like, right, oh, I've got a valuation.

And then I had an exit from my company and the VC bought it and you can have other people in the room who goes, wasn't that amazing? And then also, weirdly, cuz I'm sure that you've experienced this with yours. Oh, and then wasn't it really depressing three days later when you didn't have a plan for what was for the next stage of your life?

That's so it's again, you're in a room where people can either celebrate the pleasure or carry the pain.

[00:14:16] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. Wow. a very, a very thought provoking answer there. I think this topic of loneliness, tell me what you think about this, because I feel like sometimes we're talking about high achievers, you know, male and female, but I'm a man, so I'm gonna speak from a man's perspective.

This strong man, this provider, protector, husband, father businessman, a community leader, there's a lot of strength and like fortitude in that, for me, at least in my perspective, right? And so when you talk about loneliness, it sounds weak, right? Yeah. It sounds like, oh, you just want to, you just wanna hang out and be friends.

And that doesn't sound appealing to me on the surface because it doesn't line up with like what I see as strength, or at least what, what society has built as strength. But what I've learned is that a lot of times friendship, like you said, is what's missing, or the connection, there's just the real.

Genuine. I see you. And it's even better when it's someone like you and they've gone through these similar things. Like, I've got buddies, you know, in my church, or I've got buddies in my little area, but nobody has businesses like I do. They don't deal with the same problems or the same weight of decisions.

Like, it's just different. So my, like, I'm serving up to you like this. Weakness perspective, how is loneliness like real, even for that strong dude out there who's like, I got a beard. I don't need anybody. You know what I mean? Like,

[00:15:45] Carl Lubbe: listen, the Beard Envy today is real. This is about, 11 years growth for me and Chad.

Hey,

[00:15:52] Chaz Wolfe: keep going, dude. Yeah.

[00:15:54] Carl Lubbe: One day Tim pop out going and I'm blowing the whole thing. There you go. That's right. yeah, it's such a fascinating question. It's also, I think, A fairly American problem. So again, I'm South African, so we're gonna have slightly culturally different views on this, but America is, is built on historically things like manifest destiny.

Like, oh, America was chosen and we're gonna do this thing. And then it adopted things like, you know, the Puritan work ethic or the Protestant work ethic. All of these were very individual things. Like I have been selected. I have been chosen. Yeah. Any other place in the world where you see lower anxiety rates, lower depression rates, this, this sense of the common, the thing in common.

How do we do the thing together? And I don't think it's one or the other. I think I a lot of times talk about in my coaching about the third way. It's not a zero sum. It's not about like, how does Chaz lose his masculinity to have friends? Right? Okay. Or how does he have friends and diminish? It's like there's a third way where both of those things fully come alive.

And I'll give you an example of one of those things. I don't you, you are, younger than me, but I remember when I first came to the States, there was like a brand called No Fear, and one of the things on the brand was this Wolf. And I remember later years later, there were movies like The Hangover and you know, there's jokes about Oh, I'm like the lone wolf.

Yeah. I'm the, you know, but you know what's really interesting about that analogy? And I've, I've heard CEOs use it, be like, listen, I'm just kind of a lone wolf. I get things done, I hunt. Yeah. I don't think many people understand that in wolf, in the world of wolves, a lone wolf is rabid. The rest of the pack has lost trust in them because wolves actually hunt in packs.

They are packed animals. They work together. They're very like, Provider protector, but it happens in common. Yeah. The, the one time that a wolf decides they're going to be lone, it's because the pack has said you are no longer healthy for the community. Wow. So you need people both alone. And so when I look at this idea of I'm suffering from loneliness, I'm this person by myself, I've decided to be a lone wolf, there's a difference between solitude.

, and becoming solitary. Everybody needs solitude. Everybody needs to be with themselves and their own thoughts to re-energize. We look at this, at any world leader who's ever done anything good for the planet, had moments of great solitude. Whether that be, you know Jesus or. Gandhi, like there are spaces, even in political leaders of Nelson Mandela, I mean, took something horrific, a 27 year imprisonment and used it for the good in inside his own, in mind.

and, and use that solitude for good. But we're not supposed to pick a solitary life. Were you supposed to pick solitary moments or moments of solitude? And so for me, when I look at this, it's going, we spend so much energy building our business. But we don't spend the same kind of energy building our community and to me, If I'm very, very honest, and this is gonna probably upset some people, that's actually the weakness.

The weakness is going, I don't trust other people. There's nobody as good as me. There's nobody who can do it like I can do. There's nobody who can understand me. Those are coming from positions of FIA of going, I will never find this, or I won't tr try or attempt, and then what I'll do is I'll slap the label lone wolf on it to feel masculine or better.

Then this is where we see a lot of our like, Alphas out in the world, like making ridiculous statements, that oh, like I'm better than, and all this sort of stuff. It's like you can keep all that nonsense. That's a lone wolf who's injured crying in the woods. And I'm happy to go and help administer medical aid, but that's not something to be envied or emulated.

Dude,

[00:19:46] Chaz Wolfe: freaking mic drop. I think we can end the podcast here. I can't end it here, man. I'm so curious now. Dude, I'm taking notes

[00:19:55] Carl Lubbe: over here. Yeah. Well, hey, listen man, hopefully to add value and reduce your loneliness and the loneliness of all the listeners because again, this is the beauty of this stuff is if you can just do that one little thing, and I know it's really difficult.

If you can get interested, you will become interesting. And the more you do that, because this is really the problem for us in general. And so I'm an American now, I became a citizen, one of the greatest moments of my life a few years ago. And I'm looking at the US going, how do I help? How do I create more nuanced conversations where it's not.

Red or blue. It's not this position or this position, it's going, one of my favorite authors is a guy named Carlos Whitaker and he talks about like, how can we become human again? It's this idea that there has to be nuance and this is why I love Yeah. Conversations, I guess, where we're just asking better questions.

Yeah,

[00:20:45] Chaz Wolfe: you're a deep thinker and you've got some pretty good answers too. I like that. I wanna know. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I don't want to take us out of the clouds, but I wanna take us down, down a couple levels. Yeah. Now let's get in the dirt. Let's get in the dirt a little bit. And I want to know of a good decision through curiosity.

I'm gonna, I'm gonna label it for you. I don't want just a good decision. I want a good decision through curiosity or a, through that label or through that lens that has been real in your businesses. You've done x. Through the lens of maybe being more curious or, or doing the thing that you now teach people, that's then led to like, wow, I would do this over and over and over again.

What is it? Such a

[00:21:27] Carl Lubbe: fantastic question. So the one that pops to mind first is the way that I, that my consulting company actually came to be in existence. Okay? So I would go into companies and do rebrands, and so they're like, oh, we don't really know the problem that we're solving. We don't know the way that we solve it.

We don't know the result that we provide. We know we're, we're growing and we're making money, but we don't know. In a meeting, like, who are we really? And sometimes they're like, we were growing and now we plateaued. And we think it's because we don't really know why that was working before. So we're going on a little bit of a investigation trip here.

And so I was with, company, this is, you know, a few years ago. And, the c e o calls me a couple weeks afterwards and I was like, Hey, you know, something wrong. Like we'd sent them the brand brief and, you know, everything's typically at that point it's kind of buttoned up and they'll call me in a couple months and be like, Hey, you know, we have a friend.

Could you help them? because all of my business' referral, which is my favorite. And, and so I was, you know, briefly afterwards, I was like, everything all right? He's like, yeah, I've got a problem. I was like, yeah, man, how can I help? And he's like, are people like you more than they like me and I don't have to fix that?

And I was like, what do you mean? And I, you know, I like this guy. It's like, no, you're a lovable guy. What are you talking about? He's like, no, man. Like we felt a, a, a culture bump. The couple of days that you were here, people felt energized. And I was like, well that happens with a new brand. It's a new toy and it's Christmas morning.

He's like, no, stop placating me. They liked you better. You asked interesting questions. And he is like, so do you coach? And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, I wanna learn how to be a better leader. I want the teams to grow and develop. And I was like, well, I've been leading teams for, you know, 15 years.

but I'm happy to come and like give some, and he's like, dummy. Yeah, I'm trying to give you money to come in. I'm trying to pay you, bro. Yeah. Can you come in and fix a problem? Cuz if I pay for it, I'll do the work and if I pay for it, they'll respect that we're spending money on the p and l to make this thing work.

And I was like, yeah man, I'm happy to charge you. give me a couple of days to think through how I would organize this and it lit me up. I'd never thought about outside cuz the two things that I've been really fortunate in this life to be gifted at is, and my wife talks about the first part, always with a smile.

Cuz South Africans are kind of known for our storytelling. It's something that we do. And she would tell, say, you're known for your embellishment. And I was like, don't let the truth get in the way of a great story if we're like, if we're doing a biography, let's get the dates right.

But if I'm doing a memoir, you're looking for it to be entertained in the story of my life. And so I would tell her most of my stories are more memoir than biography. And so the dates are gonna be wrong, but the idea is gonna be right. Yeah. So my gifting is really in storytelling on the one side and then the other side, it's people building.

Like that's my favorite thing to do is come in and go, there's a problem. And it's making somebody's work life miserable and hey, let's tweak a couple of things, and then they come back a couple weeks later and like, I didn't imagine it could be this good. And it was the curiosity, like, oh, I've never done that outside of the companies that I've actually worked inside of.

Yeah. And so now consultant coach on it has been, I mean, it's only the last three years and it's been probably the most fun thing that I've ever do done, which, you know, includes a life of being a touring musician for 10 years long before that.

[00:24:52] Chaz Wolfe: So, yeah we got so deep into the, curiosity stuff that we really don't even know your backdrop yet, but, I, I love, yeah, it, it organically happened.

Number one, I think is, is the obvious point here, but a little, little thing inside of here too is that, somebody, a c e O of a company recognized a gap and, and then had a desire to fill it, not by an easy come back in and take care of it for me, but how do I level up? And so I think that's just, You know, even though that's that part of the story isn't you directly, but obviously he chose you to help him level up, which I think is obviously super honoring and help you launch a whole new business.

But that piece right there, that recognition, how does that associate to curiousness? Because even that in itself is a level of curiousness of his own potential. Would you agree?

[00:25:46] Carl Lubbe: A hundred percent. So I always tell people if you are struggling with curiosity, ask one simple thing inside your own brain.

What if. Because that's what he asked. What if I was better? what would be different? What if my employees got a better boss? What would be different? What would happen to our product if I was better? What would happen to the world if we actually solved the problem? We said we solved. And then he went, hold on.

That's a multimillion dollar thing that I've just solved for a few bucks in coaching, and obviously it's more than a few bucks, but the, in terms of the transitive effect of I can make this small investment in myself and in my team. And what if it actually worked? Yeah. The result is so, I mean, enormously exponential.

that it, it turned out to be a fantastic question for him. What if, and I think that's also true, and this is where I would encourage, you and, and everybody listening inside and outside of their business. I tell everybody you need to feel it before you fix it. And what he felt was the weight of possibility.

And a lot of times people will go to the negative. Well, if I don't do this, all these bad things will happen. If I don't do this, my team will eventually leave. If I don't do this, we won't be the brand we promised we would be. I told him like afterwards. Because he went to that place. He honestly called me cause it was bad.

And I was like, Hey, but I want to adjust your mindset. But what if it got great? What if it was amazing? And don't look back, look forward. Like what if we looked at a future that you are crafting because of the curiosity? And just ask the question, what if? What if my marriage was better? What if my kids.

Fell in love with me again and I fell in love with them again. What if I had real friendships who knew me and understood me? What if my community wasn't divided by red and blue, but was interested in the common good again? So again that what if one little small pebble can make that ripple if I ask the right question?

[00:27:54] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. I love that. The the what if, you know, kind of going back to something that you said, I don't know, five or six minutes ago. About, you know, the brain responding to pain 15 times more than the, the celebratory of the good thing. And so I wanna take that construct that you built for us and put what you just said inside of it.

Cuz to me, everything that you just said about the what if is how I've always thought. I've never thought about pain. I mean, okay, that's strong. I rarely think about pain. I always think about the what if. I'm always looking forward towards what could be as opposed to running from what I don't want.

Mm-hmm. But I also realize that that's not necessarily always the case. In fact, most of the time people are thinking about the pain and they're running from it. Mm-hmm. And a lot of salespeople use pain or other types of, you know, psychological pieces cuz our brains do respond to, Ooh, I don't want that.

And so I'm motivated. Yeah. So how do, how do we take what we know about brains and that we respond to pain maybe at a faster rate or a more intense rate, or whatever the, the language there is and, and apply what you're saying cuz I'm in a hundred percent agreement with you that the what if is way more powerful.

But everybody talks about the pain being more powerful. What, what do

[00:29:15] Carl Lubbe: you have to say? again, fascinating layout here. What I would say is, if you looked at your history, so there's always the combination of nature and nurture, right? Sometimes you're just gonna be wired. Your wiring might be slightly different towards the positive, a little bit faster.

But also I would probably say if you and I sat down for a couple of hours, And we talked about you growing up. There were probably people who were pointing you at the power of looking forward, of the power of building, what I call, running towards what you love as opposed to away from what you hate or what you feel.

Yeah. So that'll be a part of both your nature and your nurture conversation. Now, the nature conversation, like it's hard to rewire you just by thinking however, The interesting thing that we don't talk about is if you start to adjust the nurture, the environment in which you surround yourself, you are physiologically a different person every seven years.

Every part of you is completely different down to a molecular level. And so if you start to say, Hey, I'm going to move towards the positive, I'm going to move towards the possibility, the what if, the future in which there is a pleasure, in which there is love and affection and hope and all these things.

Eventually what happens is that's the CEO e o, taking control of your brain and going, oh, we're gonna point resources at this. And then eventually all of the frontline workers in your body and your physiology in your mentality are going, oh, we're gonna respond now to what the CEO is telling us as the new directive.

That's, and so a lot of this is what has come out, and this is where we have to be really careful because I think. People take things in tweets and sound bites. I don't want anybody to hear that. If you're depressed or anxious or lonely, hey, just think differently. That's not helpful. We need a holistic approach to this.

Chaz and I may be in a really positive place where either by, you know, the, the goodness of our childhood or the influence of a great mentor early on, or specific intentional acts over the last 10 years. Our physiology has now engineered faster towards pleasure than it is away from pain. now neurologically that's not true.

Your brain is still going, Hey, there's danger here. If we've got kids. You're like, where's the highway? Where's the problem? Like, our brain is still hardwired for that speed, but our c e o clicks in faster and faster and faster to say. We're gonna move towards the positive. So for anybody in that negative head space, anybody who's feeling like, I can't get out of this thing, it's about going, what's one active decision that I can make today?

Even to the point of this is why journaling is so powerful. Just write what if and then start filling that in. Three minutes a day. You do that over and over and over. I literally give this exercise to CEOs Day In endowed, it's called the three and three. So in this exercise you write down what were three wins of the day.

They can be something as small as my back didn't hurt as much as I used to. I didn't get in a fight today, like pick low hanging fruit at the beginning if you're not having larger wins all the way up to a project went well. My daughter's got in great health. My son won the thing, or whatever that is. My wife and I had a great date.

I made a new friend, like big things anywhere in between that. And then the other three is about setting the mindset for the day tomorrow, and we don't need to dig into that, but it's setting the intention, which we will know the values of. Yeah. But the science behind this stuff now is irrefutable that it helps with your.

Hurt and it helps with your longevity and it helps with, long-term diseases are all influenced by us being able to intentionally set towards the

[00:32:53] Chaz Wolfe: future.

[00:33:43] Chaz Wolfe: Wow. Okay. Well, if the listener, is still listening, they've gotten, they've gotten a whole mind swirl, from us today, and I, I wanna just take a quick pause a little, maybe a little mind.

Break for them. Yeah. I'm enjoying this dude. Like, I'm, I want to go deeper. Yeah. But for you listening right now, who is Carl, give us a little bit of like, how did you, how like, you weren't born here I totally skipped that portion of it, but I, I really want to hear it and I want them to know too.

So like, give us a little bit of like, how'd you even

[00:34:12] Carl Lubbe: get into business? Yeah. So the very short version, and this will probably also show some people, like my curiosity muscle has been built over the last. 35 years. So when you hear this, you should feel like no pressure. That's like sitting next to a, a long distance runner and going, I can run 40 feet, this person can go for a hundred miles.

but part of this is in my journey. So we're born and raised in South Africa. My dad wanted us to come to the states, you know, the American dream education opportunity, all those sorts of things. And we went a Securus route. He got a job in Central Africa and the company who employed him said, Hey, if you work here for a year, we'll send you on paid holiday anywhere in the world you want to go.

Cuz he ran this, this, manufacturing operation for them. So we worked for them for a year and then he is like, oh, I wanna go to the States. So we came to the bustling metropolis of Knoxville, Tennessee. Cuz I mean, where else would you go? Who wants to go to New York or LA or Miami or Chicago? Nope. Go to Dollywood.

And we did that. And the reason for that was the one American friend that he had lived in that part of the world and helped him get a job. So we flew back to Central Africa to a country called Zaire, and he handed in his notice and the thing my dad didn't think through is, you don't hand notice in, in that part of the world.

Once you work for them, you work for them until they tell you you don't work for them. Oh. So literally we had to flee the country. And so one of my earliest memories as an eight-year-old, Was watching my dad, get in the back of a cab and they put a blanket over him and that cab drove him across the border into Zambia and he flew to New York.

And, the next morning, The company sent. And I thought this was the coolest thing cuz I was into the, A team at the time and they sent guys in like a Jeep with AKs and the whole bit to escort him to work. And they said, all right, well where's Pete? And my mom is just like, he's already gone. And in that part of the world, if you take something from me, I'm gonna take something from you.

That's kind of like the law of, reciprocity there. And for some reason they just drove away. And I was like, I've asked her for years afterwards, I was like, they could have put five bullets in me and my two brothers, my mom and my grandmother who lived with us. And nobody would've been any the wiser or cared at all.

Yeah. Right. What were you guys thinking? They're like, we just, there wasn't another choice, like we had to get to where the job was. And so about three months later, a local church there helped raise enough money and we bought some plane tickets, cash, and we had the same experience under blankets, middle of the night in the cab, drove across the border and arrived in the States with two suitcases and a hundred bucks.

And so for me, in 1989 when we arrived, it was like, Everything is new, everything is interesting, and so, oh yeah, the environment itself. Made my brain explode with possibility. And then you are always the new kid. Okay. And you kind of talk a little funny, and my dad had decided, he would bring a parrot with him like we fled the country, but somehow he was still able to bring a parrot with I don't what to this dad.

How did he get that? Through customs and had to be left at customs to quarantine with. So my dad's walking around East Tennessee flea markets with a parrot on his shoulder and a big beard. And I'm like, we must look like the craziest people on the planet. But the thing to me was I didn't internalize that.

The thing to me was like, I'm at a flea market. I've never met people from East Tennessee before. Like everybody else was. Fascinating. I hear this all the time, right? Cause my accents really thin. And at the, at this point in life, people are like, oh, like you are so interesting. Oh, that sounds different. I'm like, you are so interesting.

You sound so different even after all these years of living in the states. Yeah. So very, very long story short. I end up going to university in the States, went back to South Africa after that. Came back to the states cuz now I could, you know, finish up my immigration and, I was supposed to be the first in our family to finish college and then go do, you know, post, grad work and I was gonna go get my PhD.

In conflict resolution and global development. But I had gotten but bitten by that, that little bug that you see over there, little music bug. And started writing these terrible songs in college and and I just, you, you grew up in Tennessee. Yeah, exactly. Now, yeah. For my formative years. I was like, you know, listen, and it's funny, I signed to a country label and tour as a musician for the next 10 years.

Wow.

[00:38:44] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. Wow. And somehow became this incredibly wise question. curiosity genius.

[00:38:53] Carl Lubbe: Oh, well you're very kind. I, the genius is in the searching. The genius is in kind of all of us going, oh, is that interesting? Does that mean something to me? And real genius, you know, Einstein talked about real genius is taking complex things and making them simple.

And so hopefully today, you know what I'm taking away from you and i's conversation is, look, I've met another incredibly curious person who can boil it down and be passionate about these things. And I love that question, like, what's burning in your chest? and so that's, I think all of us have that genius.

If only we'll pay attention to it.

[00:39:28] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. I love that. Okay. I wanna ask you some, some questions here to kind of end up. I want to know, about family for you. for the, for the curious individual, for the professional who's building businesses. I believe that, obsession, is what has made me successful in life.

I'm obsessed with the what if, but I've also found that obsession with my wife is pretty good and obsession with my children works out pretty good as well. And. Really anything that I'm saying that I want, if there isn't obsession behind it, then it really doesn't work. so my question for you, Carl, is how have you been able to obsess over those other things outside of the business at the same time?

[00:40:09] Carl Lubbe: Yeah. So I, I'll go ahead and, and pre-warn you, this is an entirely different podcast, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna pull the pin knowing we can't get to all of this. Okay. We can't, we can't go there. Okay. Sounds good. It's not a, it's not a three hour podcast. We'll leave that to Rogan. but for us,

[00:40:27] Chaz Wolfe: but, but it could be a lead into a version two or a episode two.

I'm

[00:40:30] Carl Lubbe: a hundred percent and I'm very open to that. Although all your listeners should know, man, Chaz is doing this thing, right, like his team and his staff. Are on it. I'm sure I'll get an invite for like June of 2028. That's right. Like this podcast was booked I think six months ago. That's right. And I was like, what is the most organized podcast team I've ever come across?

And I do a fair amount of these. but with all that to say, the pin that I would pull on this is two parts. The first part is, so I love your word. My word would be slightly different. Mine is adoration. Mm-hmm. So like I have this adoring affection. For my wife and then my kids, and then my friends and community, and then kind of everything else, which also includes my, my work thing that I'm doing.

Yeah, so that's the first part. Slightly different word, but that's the beauty of this is everybody can have their own wood and it doesn't have to be monolithic. The second part of this is I actually don't, I think balance is a myth. Yeah, agree. And this is my main thesis in life and probably the thing that I get asked to speak on the most is this idea of.

Order versus balance. Mm-hmm. You and I for the last 25 years of our life, since we've, you know, come to the space where we're like, what do I wanna be like, what do I wanna do? We have been swimming in the waters of balance because if you ask any man or woman who is in a professional place, one of the questions that they go, Hey, what is your work life?

Right balance. Yeah. And then I'll ask somebody. I was like, Hey, so I think it's a unicorn. I don't think it actually exists. And they're like, no. Like there's books on it and you figure it out. I'm like, so let me ask you this. Let me ask you, who are three people that you know in perfect balance all the time?

And you have to know them, like know their marriage, know their parenting, know their finances, know their business, and you can tell me that for months and seasons at a time that they're living in perfect balance. And immediately everybody goes, I've never met one person in. I've been asking that question for 15 years now.

I've never met anybody who's gone. Oh no, no. I know the three and here they're, I was like, let me go study them cuz I want to live. They know something I don't know. So what I came to start asking was, well if this thing that we read books on and there's entire genres of literature and movies and podcasts on, and even music of like, Hey, how do I have all the things.

If it doesn't exist, well then what does exist? And I started looking around the world, around us. And so I see natural order. You plant a seed, then the next step is you water the thing. The next step is you kind of protect it. And then after a time it grows up and there's fruits and this is how things develop.

And so if that's true of nature, maybe it's true of us as well. And I think the real work for anybody is discovering what your order is. And so this is when I tell people, yeah, this is descriptive of my experience, not necessarily prescriptive to yours because Carl's order is Karl and God.

So my spiritual journey, Next, it's Carl and Catherine. That's my wife. Third place is Carl, Charlie, and Caitlin. Those are my kids. And then fourth is everything else. And my job every single day is to wake up and go, how am I tapping into something larger than myself? And so that's the part where I talk about it being.

Descriptive to me. I will tell anybody else, just find anything bigger than you because you're not big enough. When the world really shakes, if you're not meditating, if you're not taking time away, if you haven't found a spiritual practice, when it really shakes, It's gonna be bad. It's gonna be really, really bad.

Yeah. Then the next place is once I really come to understand my identity from something LR than me, then I can give the best version of me to my wife, my first place on this planet. And then we've done a really intentional job of tonight for us is date night. And so we will leave and I remember the first time we got a babysitter, I had some well-intentioned friends say, Hey, I got a trick for you.

What's the trick? When the babysitter comes, make sure you've got like some m and ms. Give it to the babysitter. The m and ms will give the the m and ms to the kids. And then while that's happening, you just disappear. And then there's no fussing, no crying, no whatever. It's like I appreciate the intention behind that.

I'm not gonna do that. So when we got the babysitter, and obviously the, you know Charlie, my oldest is a little bit older. He is about three and a half, four at the time. And I get down on one knee and I'm like, Hey bud, mom and I are going out on date. What's the first thing he's gonna say to me? No, I wanna go.

I wanna go, dad, I wanna go. And the first thing, hey, but I would, I would love you and I can do something at a different time, but this is a special time for me and mommy because that's my best friend. And people were like, Ooh, I don't know if I like that, but, and he was like, but Daddy, I'm your best friend.

I was like, I love you. You're not, mommy's my best friend. And one of the things that I will tell you is it creates such a sense of security in the kids. If your spousal relationship is strong. And then from that they're like, hold on. So number two is not a bad gig on the whole planet. So my son and daughter are number two to only one other person on the planet.

It's a pretty good gig because even right now, as much as I love Chad and the audience, If one of the kids came in and there was a real problem, be like, Hey man, I love you. We're gonna pause. We can edit this thing together. But number two, just walked into the room. Yeah. And that's not you and I right now.

And so I think once you can start having those conversations and daily setting alignment to that order, it's this funny thing. It's much like, have you ever been surfing?

[00:46:01] Chaz Wolfe: not personally. been in on a Boogie board though,

[00:46:03] Carl Lubbe: plus, right. Okay. Same boogie board, same, same concept. The order of the Boogie board is, I have to get out to the water.

And then I'm going to put this thing under me. That's step number two. Then step number three is I'm gonna wait for the wave, and then as it comes, I'm gonna kick, and then the force of that is gonna push me. And by the way, what does that create? It creates a sense of rhythm. Mm-hmm. And then for a brief few moments, while you're on that boogie board, it creates a sense of, I'm really balanced and isn't this fun?

But if you only chase the balance without first prescribing the order, you would never get to ride that boogie board.

[00:46:39] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, yeah. Or have the enjoyment of getting out and taking each step before the balance and after, because once the balance is over, the ride isn't done necessarily. What's that? So the ride, not the balance, the journey, the order love, the idea of order.

you're speaking to a orderly person, and so I appreciate that. for the, for those that are listening, that when they hear order, they're like, don't put me in a box, bro. Mm-hmm. What would you say to that person who's like, I hear you, but like, mm-hmm. I don't like order.

[00:47:10] Carl Lubbe: Yeah, so you'd probably be talking to me.

I'm probably like, I love and admire people like Chaz. I am not a everything in its place and every place and its thing or whatever the saying is for that. you can tell I'm apparently not ordered guy cause I can't even quote the thing properly. What I would say about the order is it has to be, and this is where I come back to the word adore.

Like those are the things that I adore. And so they go in that natural order. Yes, I feel adoration from my makeup, and so it is the most pleasurable place for me to be first. Lovely. And then after that, I've have received the most adoration and given the most to this one person, my spouse. And so what is enjoyable second place to be?

And then any of us who's ever had kids, you're like, That's a different sort of adoration to both give and receive. And then finally, the work that you do if you're committed to it, if it's something that comes easily and you have an enjoyment about it, that order kind of creates itself. So it no longer feels like if you told me, Hey Carl, here's the recipe.

Stick to it and do the thing. I'm not a great baker, because that feels kind of boxy. This order is a little bit more liberating because it's the natural kind of overflow of who

[00:48:20] Chaz Wolfe: you are. Yeah. And I think that you're, not only are you spot on, we both know that you're on, but just for a further explanation, for the listener, it's based on you.

So the work that you just talked about is figuring out what that order looks like for you. And your order might look different than mine. Mine's in alignment with exactly what you just said, so we are the same in that way, but, but if I had a different perspective of what my order was and I was following Carl's order, then I wouldn't be.

Adoring using his words in order, I would be out of alignment or out of balance. yep.

[00:48:55] Carl Lubbe: And you'll feel it if you feel anxiety or pressure. And again, holistically, there's a lot of reasons for that. But one of the reasons might be is that the order is out of order. And so that's the beauty of this is if you feel.

Less than a hundred percent deep contentment right now. It would be one of the many questions I would have you ask yourself is what is the order I say it should be and what is the actual order? it's kind of like what we do with Brands. This is your, aspirational brand, but it's not your actual brand.

It's who you want to be, but it's not who you are. And when those things are misaligned, it creates real static, real, misaligned. Of, purpose and lines and

[00:49:36] Chaz Wolfe: well, there's also a reality there that, that they are different and I, it's okay to be in the actual brand or the current way. I say things are, but they aren't yet.

And that yet word is the, is the hinge point. It's like, well, I'm not there yet. you know, for me, something super practical. I've said this on the podcast many times that I would say time with my family was important, but I. It wasn't on my calendar. Mm-hmm. Because only business was on my calendar, but, but I would talk about time blocking and how my calendar would was so important.

It's like, well, how can the calendar principally be the thing that brings order? But the thing that I'm saying is most important isn't on the calendar. Like just so simple.

[00:50:13] Carl Lubbe: A hundred percent. And you bring such a magnificently. Good point in that, one of the first things I do with leaders, CEOs, team leaders, anybody, is I say, Hey, can you show me your calendar?

And I can like show you which of these gets kept, which of these gets bombed, which gets put. It'll show me what's actually important and it's fine. I'm just trying to get you to see what is actually important to you these days. And a lot of times for most people, it's hyper reactionary and that just means something's always on fire.

So how do we get the extinguisher and then after we've got that thing under control, how do we actually become proactive as opposed to reactive to the calendar and then let it teach us what's really important

[00:50:53] Chaz Wolfe: to us. Yeah. I've, I've been jiving with you. I got, your little comment about your, your son and, and teaching him about, date night.

it's funny because as when you brought up the m and ms in my mind I'm like, oh, that is not what I would do. let's see where this goes. and so I was pleasantly surprised with your response. because we're the same way, like, I mean, I haven't said I'm going on a date specifically, but it's, Hey, we're, we're leaving.

And, and then, you know, when they were three or four, that same age, it's. We're going on a date. And so they know like, Hey, we're, we're going on a date. And like, this is what, this is what mommy and daddies do on a date. We, we talk to each other and we, we pay attention because normally paying attention to you guys and giving you guys love and, and even explaining what happens.

talking to them like they understand because they. Do.

[00:51:36] Carl Lubbe: Yeah. Oh, it's shocking how much they're picking up all the time. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Cause I mean, it's muddling, right? That's all we're doing in the brain, in the neurology world, these are mirror neurons. It's where we get the monkey c monkey do. They're watching and imitating all the time, and so are are the things we're doing with imitating.

[00:51:54] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, exactly. Love that. Okay, one last question for you, Carl. You ready? Yeah. I wanna know if you had the opportunity to whisper in the younger Carl's ear.

[00:52:05] Carl Lubbe: What would you say?

Man, that's a great one. What would I say to younger me? honestly, start your own thing earlier. because I've been doing it, like I said, my two companies for the last two years or three years, and have, have worked for other people and done that thing. I am just wired for so much, this is gonna sound silly.

I'm wired for so much whimsy, so much possibility that working for other people was like, oh, this is just the way it has to be. And what I've encountered in the last few years is if I'm not having fun, I'm probably doing it wrong. Hmm, we'll just be like honest. I make so much more money on the other side of having fun, like when I'm in the right place doing the thing that only I know how to do in the way that I know how to do it.

It's weird. The phone rings more, the clients get bigger, all of that sort of stuff. And so it's that idea of like, Hey, try this thing on your own. Fasta. Because I think the trajectory of, my family and i's life would've been different cuz I did, I did that very boldly in music. Like, so I went out on my own very quickly and was like, Hey, we can figure this thing out.

But when it came to music, doesn't pay a lot of those bills. So I still had corporate jobs and working for other people, doing all the things now that I do as a consultant. You're giving it away at a fraction of the cost on somebody else's timeline and in their culture that you can try and influence as much as you possibly can, but it's very different than when you birth the culture yourself.

And then it can be whatever you want it to be. so I probably would've told myself to take the jump a

[00:53:39] Chaz Wolfe: lot earlier. I, love your, just honesty. and, and also too, the fact that it's not weighing you down. You're fully living in that happiness or that joy, or that fun as you call it, even right now.

And it doesn't have to go back. it would've been nice, but, I love the, the levity that you bring to that. It's, it's great, great perspective, but here we go from here forward, right? Yeah.

[00:54:04] Carl Lubbe: I've got a friend who says, up until now when they talk about anything in the past, like, you know, if you were talking about fitness or your business or anything else, that, not exactly as you want it to be, be like, until now, I haven't been good at this.

Okay. It gives just such a blank check to what today ends tomorrow in the future hold, which I love.

[00:54:23] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. It's that. What if, Carl, how can the listener find you, number one, if, if they're a brand looking to, up level and go to that next, aspirational brand, not their actual brand, they're looking to rebrand, maybe, how can they find you and, and then also if they're a ceo, And they have been provoked to curiosity through our conversation.

How can they find you that way?

[00:54:44] Carl Lubbe: Yeah, so the c e o or team leader who wants to improve culture and efficiency, and just happiness of the culture. By the way, on that side, we're very much in the du so a lot of what we talked about today was very philosophical. But yeah, we have what we call the seven figure questions.

So most companies are asking seven questions the wrong way. That are costing them seven figures. Wow. We can teach a company to ask the seven right questions for everything from conflict to expectation setting to ideation to onboarding that can make them seven figures more. so to find out more about that, you can go to get more curious.com and then you can just click on the calendar link, get some time with me.

And then on the branding side, that's a fun story. It's tall tale, so T A L l T A L E. brands.com. Our mascot's a big giraffe, so it'll help you remember a tall tale. but, and the name for that company came out of a toast, as you can kind of tell. I'm, I tend to be the person where they're like, at a party, Hey Carl, say something.

Cause it'll come maybe quickly and hopefully more succinctly than I have your podcast. but they're like, Hey, Carl, give a toast. And I'm like, I have one ready. And it just popped out and it was like to old friends and new and tall tales that are true. And that was the name that we picked for the company cuz we're like, we really are telling these magnificent stories that actually happen to also be true.

And so that's just tall tale brands.com.

[00:56:10] Chaz Wolfe: Love it. Carl, you are a magnificent mind and, an incredible king at what you do, in all areas of life. And so I'm honored to know you, man, and look forward to, what comes for you and me. But, thank you for being here. We appreciate not only just the time and the value that you've given, but we wanna wish you blessing, on your family and your businesses, all that you put your hand to in 2023.

All the clients that you're gonna touch. Thank you for

[00:56:35] Carl Lubbe: being here, brother. Well, I receive all those blessings. Thank you so much for the time.

Welcome Carl Lubbe on this episode of Gathering The Kings Podcast: an immigrant from South Africa turned rock-star consultant who swapped his backstage pass for a consultant's desk. Carl took a sharp turn from a potential Harvard PhD and a musical career to start Curiosity Consulting, where he navigates CEOs and business owners towards their true passion. Carl breaks down the complex wiring of the human brain, the loneliness behind success, and the crucial role of a happy business culture. He spotlights curiosity as a business-shaping tool and the power of asking 'what if'. His rule of thumb? Ignite your inner 8-year-old’s exploratory spirit, moving beyond just experiencing or reaching. Tune into the wisdom of Carl Lubbe and discover your 'what if' - click play now and transform your journey.

Carl Lubbe Info:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/curiositycoach/

Coaching and Consulting Website: https://getmorecurious.com/

Branding Agency Website: https://www.talltalebrands.com/talltalebrands.com

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