496 | How to Build Influence and Authority With Jeff Goins

Jan 27

[00:00:00] Chaz Wolfe: What's up driven to win nation, Chas Wolf, serial entrepreneur. I'm your host today. I've got Jeff Goins on the stage and he's a best selling author and the founder of Fresh Complaint, which is a creative agency helping people master their message. [00:00:14] And today we go deep on how reading, writing, and clear thinking are guaranteed to get you all the power. That you want in this life. So grab your pen. Let's dive in. [00:00:23] Jeff, my brother recordings on, we're just going to get rolling. I know you said you wouldn't, you would, you would be good with keeping it casual and connecting and,~ uh,~ dude, I've, I have appreciated you from afar. And,~ uh,~ I just want to use this time to let the audience get to know you a little bit better. [00:00:42] Of course, I want to get to know you better too, but,~ um,~ you, you, you had a very interesting,~ um,~ little piece in here. I was kind of going through the notes and,~ uh,~ obviously you you're an author, you're a bestselling author. ~Uh, ~you have a business around writing and creating ideas and fun stuff for other people. [00:00:58] And we're going to get all to all of that, [00:01:00] but I would love to start this thing off with asking you. Your favorite piece that you've ever either written or been a part of writing. [00:01:10] Jeff Goins: My favorite piece,~ um, uh, ~the, the favorite thing that I ever made was a private book of poems that I gave my wife for Christmas a couple years ago, probably. [00:01:23] Chaz Wolfe: Why did that bubble up as your favorite out of all the pieces? [00:01:29] Jeff Goins: ~Uh, ~cause I think writing is a conversation, you know, ~um, ~I, I like writing things for Until a certain point, and then I want to see how they affect somebody else. It's the same reason that I like cooking. I love making things, but making something. And then just kind of leaving it to me feels incomplete. I want to make something and then see somebody react to it. [00:01:52] Hopefully, you know, positively. ~Uh, ~so my wife is my favorite reader, which is the,~ uh,~ only [00:02:00] person in the world whose,~ uh,~ opinion. I really care about these days are certainly, you know, the one that I care about the most. So it was fun. It was fun. I mean, I, I, I, I've written books for lots of people before. [00:02:15] I've never written a book just for one person. And so I've been writing poems to her for a long time, couple of years ago for Christmas. I self published a book that I wrote,~ uh,~ laid out, edited and designed myself. And that was fun. Like I did every part of the project and gave it to her. [00:02:34] Chaz Wolfe: ~Um, ~what do you think? I mean, at first off, I just, I love that answer,~ uh,~ for, for many reasons, and I'm sure we'll get into family stuff here in a bit. You know that I'm, I'm big on that, but,~ um,~ for, for you to write for an audience of one, as you kind of said there, but specifically, To watch her reaction. And I loved how you connected it to, to cooking. [00:02:54] ~Um, ~Julie, my wife, before having to cook for all of our children, really loved to cook [00:03:00] and, and, but it was the same thing for her. It wasn't really about the cooking actually that she doesn't really care for that as much. It was. Here, eat. I made this for you. And then like waiting, salivating on my reaction to the food. [00:03:10] You know, what, what do you think that is describing on the inner part of you, her, anyone else who has this desire? What, what, what is that reflecting? [00:03:22] Jeff Goins: I, I think it reflects ourselves, you know, human beings actually can't see themselves. ~Um, ~I was,~ uh,~ reading a magazine before I came here, I was reading this in a, in a copy of the believer, which is small literary magazine. And ~um, ~and somebody was talking about this, you know, human beings actually, you never actually have seen yourself. [00:03:41] You've seen at best a picture, a mirror image, but you've not actually seen yourself. ~Um, ~and, and you have a pretty good idea of what you look like. And how you are, except that you don't, you know, except that,~ um,~ all you're ever really seeing is people's reactions to you and [00:04:00] that forms who you are or forms a lot of what you would think of as yourself, you know, you take, if you take away your parents,~ uh,~ where you were born, who you lived with, who you grew up with, your teachers, your friends, relatives, loved ones, you take away. [00:04:18] Everybody in your life, you don't have you anymore, you know, you've got some sort of vague, abstract human being, but you don't have you. So we are in many ways,~ um,~ what is reflected back to us by other people. So when we make something and it, and it sort of bounces off of somebody, you know, you sing a song, you say a thing, you,~ uh,~ write a poem and you see how it affects somebody else. [00:04:45] It's reflecting back to you something about yourself, I think. And that's, I think that's why people, as soon as they want to, as soon as they create something, they want to share it, you know, ~um, ~yeah, it's common, you know, speaking of family, people get married, maybe it's [00:05:00] less common now, but there is, there is something biological and sort of. [00:05:04] Human to like, once you've got a good thing, you want more of it. And it's not necessarily always greedy. You know, you get married, find somebody that you love. And a few years into that, like, let's have a kid. ~Um, ~like it's, you love wants to kind of grow and expand and become more of itself in creativity is, is that way too, you know, you have a kid, you made a kid and you want people to look at it like, look at my cute baby, you know? [00:05:27] And,~ um,~ and so there is something. About sort of the creative process, whether you're making human life or a souffle that wants to be shared, that is kind of like, ~um, ~incomplete until there's an echo, until something kind of bounces back and, and,~ um,~ confirms what you've done. And I think this is why a lot of artists are a little bit insecure, you know, it's, it's rare to meet a confident author, artist, thought leader. [00:05:58] Chaz Wolfe: Entrepreneur, [00:05:59] Jeff Goins: yeah. Right. [00:06:00] They exist. ~Um, ~but the truth is we don't know what a thing is until we see, especially a business, you know, you don't really know what a thing is until you start to see its impact on other people. And then you start to get some confidence. You go, Oh, like this idea that I had, this thing that I thought might be, might work is working. [00:06:19] And, and that's, that's most fun when the work that you do has an impact on somebody else. In ways that surprise you, hopefully in a positive way, they don't devastate you. But like if people respond exactly the way that you want them to the thing that you've made, that's not quite as fun as like you did something and they got something in a way that wasn't exactly what you intended. [00:06:44] And I think that's when I think that's what's fun about it. Is it mimics life that like life is a story that's continually unfolding and it's continually surprising us. [00:06:54] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. I, I love all of that. It made me think of obviously gathering the Kings as a community and being around [00:07:00] people and, and having a, a chamber of people to bounce things off of. You got to experience, we were in Nashville,~ uh,~ you're where, where you are and, and we invited you to one of our dinners and, and you got to,~ uh,~ just chat with,~ uh,~ some of our,~ uh,~ members and we had just a cool conversation about one of your books and that was just a really fun night. [00:07:17] From your experience using the kind of philosophy of, of, you know. This echo or this, this community need that we have, what's, what's been your experience with maybe past your wife, past the family in business, whether that's team members, maybe it's partners, maybe it's groups like GTK, but what's been your experience with what you just described as a need. [00:07:40] How have you, how have you kind of itched that,~ um,~ in your own life? [00:07:42] Jeff Goins: ~Um, ~well, I've been a part of masterminds before,~ um, uh, ~a number of them. That's been really fun. ~Um, ~the most interesting, fun way that I've seen resonance with creative work recently is ~um, ~is when I read things and, and when I write something and then I read it [00:08:00] in front of somebody else, like immediately out loud. [00:08:04] ~Um, ~and so one of the projects that I'm working on right now as a ghost writer is I am writing a children's story for my daughter's. ~Uh, ~third grade class and and so they have basically hired me as the ghost writer to help them write a story and so it's their story. I'm just kind of filling in the details, you know, but they've given me all the plot points and all the characters and stuff. [00:08:29] So I wrote about half of it,~ uh,~ and it got long and I got like, I got super into it. I got like sucked into it. I like took some. Risks and stuff. This is a project that we're working on this winter that I hope comes out. I mean, where it's just a fun thing. My, my daughter's school has parents come in and share about their work. [00:08:47] And so I've gone in and shared with them a little bit about what it's like to be a professional writer. ~Uh, ~first time I went in there, I shared all these books that I'd helped people write and books that I'd written myself. And this time I went in and I said, you know, they wanted to learn about ghost writing. [00:08:59] I [00:09:00] said, why don't we just do it? Why don't we just write a book together? So, so that's what we're doing, but I got really into it. And this is kind of an,~ um,~ I think a weird part about being a ghost writer is you can't help, but start to take the material personally. Like it becomes. Something that, that you really care about. [00:09:15] I I've never worked on a book and not cared about it, which,~ um,~ at times has probably been a detriment cause I get, I'd get too personally attached to it. It's not my book.~ Um, ~but I just, I care about books. ~Um, ~so I'm working on this book and then my,~ uh, uh, uh, ~daughter was,~ Uh,~ hanging out with us one night and she's eight and I said, Hey, can I, can I read you what I have? [00:09:35] She said, yeah, I said, I said, like, I'm a little bit, you know, sensitive about it. So be gentle, you know? So I took her up to the playroom and I sat down and I, and I read it to her. ~Um, ~and cause I'd taken their idea and I had really changed it into something that I thought was more interesting, which is always, always a risk with a client, especially a group of, you know, 30,~ uh,~ [00:09:57] Chaz Wolfe: 10 year olds. [00:09:59] Jeff Goins: ~Um, ~and,~ uh,~ and I [00:10:00] read it to her and she was like, I have two corrections and she gave me these two corrections. And she said other than that, love it. I want to, I want to hear more. I really love that. I've done that with my wife. I was working on a book earlier this fall and I would read. ~Um, uh, ~a chapter two or at a time every night, I'd kind of write something, rewrite it. [00:10:19] We'd go sit on the back porch for a little while,~ uh,~ have a cocktail and I'd read her, you know, a new piece of writing. I had heard years ago about a business author who did that. And I always thought that sounded cool. I was,~ uh,~ never brave enough to do it. And I like that. I think there's something that I, I love about performance and live interaction with a piece of content.~ Uh, ~I'm not like most writers I know, although like some, I guess, in that,~ um,~ my, my first experience with creativity was performance, namely music, playing in bands in high school. And, and acting, you know, on the stage. And so I, I [00:11:00] got really used to,~ um,~ performing,~ uh,~ material in front of people and I think books can be that, you know, ~um, ~before the invention of the printing press, the way that you would,~ um,~ copy a manuscript is you would, you would write something and you would. [00:11:14] Read it. And that was the publication was when you read it. It was making the work public. And then if somebody wanted a copy of that, if they liked it, you would hire a scribe and they would copy it like thinking. I mean, think of like biblical times, you know, like 1st, 2nd, 3rd centuries A. D. ~Um, ~this is how we mass produced books is you would hire a scribe and they would like rewrite the thing that you had. [00:11:35] ~Um, ~written, but publication was the process of actually performing your written piece of material. You read it aloud. And I think even to this day, no author should publish a book until they've read it aloud in front of somebody else. [00:11:50] Chaz Wolfe: Interesting. What do you, you, you use the word brave. You weren't brave enough to do that before. ~Uh, ~now it sounds like it's a joy. [00:11:57] Jeff Goins: It's a joy. Yeah. [00:11:58] Chaz Wolfe: And so what was the, [00:12:00] what was the switch for you from bravery to like, I don't know if she's going to like it or someone else, even to now I find joy. [00:12:07] Jeff Goins: ~Uh, ~you know, I don't know, getting over myself, probably,~ um,~ wanting to.~ Uh, ~be better than I necessarily knew that I, I could be. ~Um, ~I, I don't know. I, I just,~ um,~ I've been through a lot over the past several years and,~ um, uh, uh, ~at a certain point, hopefully you start to take yourself a little less seriously. [00:12:25] And when you take yourself less seriously, there's, there's less to lose. So when I write a book now, I'm, I'm less concerned about my reputation. I'm more concerned about the quality of the book, you know, coming from the space that I come from business leadership books, you know, self help. There's a lot of ego in that space. [00:12:43] There's a lot of like, you're writing a book so that you have a platform so that people. Treat you differently or buy things from you or do something for you. It's treated like a business asset. ~Um, ~I think about writing, I did that for a long time. I think about writing less that way. My books are not about me.[00:13:00] [00:13:00] I am about my books. I'm trying to create something meaningful. Hmm. [00:13:10] Chaz Wolfe: for coffee and you just kind of rattled off a few of the books that you've been a part of that everybody listening would know. I don't, I don't want to say them unless you do, but,~ um,~ I, I just, it was just such a casual thing for you to be like, Oh yeah, I was part of that, that, this, that, and the other, and some of the books that I've really enjoyed. [00:13:29] ~Um, ~and,~ uh,~ and so, so yeah, I appreciate you. What I'm, what I'm getting at underneath that is how, how is it, or maybe you're still figuring this out, but how can you write such incredible material? And then like you're saying, disassociate it because it's not your book. It's not your story. But it's your writing. [00:13:50] And so when, when you said X book, when we were sitting there on co at the coffee shop, I was like, wait a second, that's one of my favorite books probably ever, [00:13:57] Jeff Goins: Hmm. [00:13:58] Chaz Wolfe: you know? So [00:14:00] talk about that. Cause, cause I think I probably the, the whole of what I'm getting to is this imposter syndrome and this ego connection that we have to, whether it be our stuff or our business or, you know, whatever, and you just displayed this, like, yeah, it's no big deal. [00:14:13] It was a great writing and I was a part of it, but you know, [00:14:16] Jeff Goins: Yeah, I, I mean, I don't know what you're referring to, but,~ uh,~ um,~ uh, ~I'm, you know, ~uh, ~there are,~ uh,~ a list ghostwriters and I am, I am, I'm not one of them. I'm, I might be a beer C list and, and I'm okay with that. Um,~ Uh, ~I think any,~ uh,~ any honest writer, any honest, creative writer would say at some point when you're working on something,~ um,~ something takes over that doesn't feel personal. [00:14:43] ~Uh, ~maybe it's that way in business. You know, I, I'm, I'm not a, Very successful business person. I have owned businesses in the past. I understand the game of entrepreneurship enough to know like, ~um, ~I'm not that great at it and don't want to be that [00:15:00] great at it. Meaning like there are friends of mine who play game or play, like play the game of business, like they would play a game of chess, you know, they, they're moving all the pieces around on the board. [00:15:12] They're seeing the whole game. I always like wanted to be a piece, you know, like I want to. I want to be, I want to be doing a thing. I don't want to,~ um,~ like run meetings all day long or look at spreadsheets. So like, I, I want to like, I know that's not, not every, every business leader has kind of their niche, but like some of the, like the fundamental aspects of running a business, I thought really boring. [00:15:31] And like, it was, it was all like,~ uh,~ I just wanted to get back to doing the thing that I did, which was right. All that to say, it seems to me that in any sort of craft,~ um,~ there is, there is a point at which you're not thinking about doing it anymore. You know, I imagine,~ uh,~ the best entrepreneurs that I know are playing the game of business like that. [00:15:54] They're flowing, you know, even in athletics. ~Um, ~there is this way [00:16:00] to master the game so much that the game is sort of being played through you versus you're doing a thing, or if you're like, you know, playing on a team, you know, uh,~ Um, ~you can't necessarily take credit for the win. It's like, wow, we were all kind of doing this thing together. [00:16:17] ~Um, ~I think a lot of the best stuff that I've ever written came from somewhere else. You know, not that it's like some super mystical thing. It's just like, ghostwriting is sort of like writing fiction, which I don't know that much about because most of what I write is nonfiction. But it's sort of like that in that the, the person who has hired you to write a book, and that can look a lot of different ways. [00:16:43] You can be interviewing the person, maybe they're writing a first draft and you're editing it, it's a collaboration. So it looks different for everybody. My job is just to help a person finish their job, finish their book,~ uh,~ and make it as best as it can possibly be and, and make them as proud of it as they can possibly be. [00:16:58] ~Um, ~and that's always kind of [00:17:00] a wrestling match with the, with the The client and with the work itself, because we're trying to figure out what this thing is. And we all have different opinions about it.~ Um, ~but like, there is a point where you're just sort of like, you know, where I've, I've got dozens of interviews of a client and I've listened to those interviews and I've, and I've written down notes and then I just sort of writing as if I'm that person. And, and if it's not me, like, these are not my ideas. ~Um, ~these are not even my thoughts. It's just what seems to be right right now. It's ~um, ~like the, the, the best way I can think of it musically is like, you get a bunch of friends together and you're like jamming and I play guitar and it's like, you know, like you're just all like playing and like somebody plays a little riff and somebody is like, what's that? [00:17:46] Where did that come from? It's like, I don't know. It just. Like, it just felt like the right thing to do at this time. And if another time came along, there'd be another right thing to do. [00:17:54] Chaz Wolfe: yeah, [00:17:55] Jeff Goins: It's kind of like that. It feels like flow. ~Um, ~but you know, like I'm not beyond ego. [00:18:00] There, there are plenty of books that I've worked on that. I don't remember writing. I don't, I don't know who wrote what. So, you know, if you pulled a book off of a shelf and go, Man, like, I love this line. You wrote that, right? It's like, I don't know. ~Uh, ~ghostwriting, at least the way that I do it, is collaborative. So if you were to hire me as a ghostwriter, you might say, Hey, like, Here are these 10, 12 rules for life that I want to include in my book, you know, and I'd be like, Oh, okay. [00:18:29] You know, rule number one. ~Um, ~and, and I would say, and I would, and I would share it with you here. Here's chapter one. And you go, no, no, not like that. Like this. And I want to say this. It's like deck. It's like hiring somebody to like build your house, you know, it's like you need a job. You need an architect. [00:18:43] You need a GC. You need a bunch of, you know, contractors to do all the work. ~Um, ~and then you're still kind of walking around going, let's tear this wall down. And then the GC is like, if that's a load bearing wall, if you tear that down, the whole thing's going to collapse. ~Um, ~so there are projects that I've worked on where I go, I don't [00:19:00] know if I wrote that, if the client wrote that, if that was an idea from an editor. [00:19:04] So a book really is this communal project. There's lots of people. Working on it, making sure that it becomes, you know, what it is. And even an author should have a certain kind of humility towards their work and be like, I don't know. I don't know who wrote that, you know? ~Um, ~but the, the fewer ideas you have, the more precious you are about them. [00:19:26] The more you work in, in the world of ideas, the more abundant you realize ideas are. Like, I don't feel precious about my ideas. I could. I could write something. I could write my best line, my best thought and share it and maybe put it in a client's book. It's, it's, it's my idea. I've given it to them. My story, my concept, whatever I've given it to them. [00:19:49] Cause it illustrates something that they're saying in their book. I've done that before many times. ~Um, uh, ~I used to be hesitant to do that. I don't, I don't feel so hesitant to do it anymore. Cause as soon as I give away a good idea, [00:20:00] another one comes and it's better. So I just don't, when I hired a business coach years ago and I was like coming up, you know, in my own little space and I had all these friends who wanted me to work with them, you know, wanted to hire me as a consultant advisor, bring me in as a business partner. [00:20:21] And I didn't really, I was like, ah, I've got a thing going on, but other people have other things going on. More is better. ~Um, ~and, and I, I stepped away from what I thought was a multimillion dollar idea. ~Um, ~because I just felt busy and overwhelmed and it just didn't feel right. And I felt really sad about that. [00:20:39] And I told my, my business coach about this. And he said, businesses are like trains, man. There's always another one coming. But if you're new to, if you're new to entrepreneurship, you're like, no, this is it, like I've seen shark tank or whatever. I've watched the movies. And if I don't, if I don't go all in on this one thing, it's never going to happen again.[00:21:00] [00:21:00] I I've. Been in business for myself long enough and known enough entrepreneurs long enough to go. That's basically never true. Even if it is something huge, it's like something else will come. And ideas are like that. They're like Bitcoin, you know, just wait, it'll go down. It'll go back up. Like, just, just wait. [00:21:18] Chaz Wolfe: That, that,~ um,~ that patience at the beginning when, when you don't, when you think this is the it, that when this is the one, like I got to take advantage, I got to move now. ~Um, ~obviously there's, there's not as many probably, but, but many entrepreneurs. Overanalyze and miss the good opportunity. ~Um, ~and, and need to just be shoved into one probably. [00:21:35] But,~ um,~ I think that you're probably right. Mostly with entrepreneurs are authors, whatever it is. It's like, there's always going to be another idea, a business opportunity. ~Um, ~and it's tough in those moments to, to like watch it go away. You know, like I've, I've heard. Even the shark tank guys, you know, like I missed the opportunity to invest in Uber or whatever I had this, you know, in, and I denied it and it'd be worth X about now. [00:21:59] And [00:22:00] I remember playing that game a few years ago. ~Um, ~because currently right now,~ um,~ I just, I just had a guy on the podcast probably three or four months ago and he was screaming from the rooftops. Buy Bitcoin because of these, these, these cyclical four year natures. And, and I got in on one a handful of years ago and made it a lot of money. [00:22:18] And I turned into a very obsessive,~ uh,~ trader and I, and that's not, that's not my focus. That's not what I'm doing. And,~ uh,~ so even though I had this guy and he's like, dude, I'm telling you right now, like this is the time. And it has doubled since having him on the show. And I knew that it would. And I had, and I literally in that moment, I, I had even people on my own team ask me like, Hey, so like, all right, what are you, what are you doing with this? [00:22:39] I'm like, I personally am not doing anything because it's not the opportunity for me because I know what it'll do to me and I'm okay with losing out, you know? [00:22:49] Jeff Goins: I had a friend in 2013 in our, in our mastermind group that we were part of his business matter, and he's like, dude, get Bitcoin. It's just gonna change everything. And he was like, it's [00:23:00] only 50 right now. [00:23:02] Chaz Wolfe: Right. [00:23:03] Jeff Goins: And it's like, it was only 200. He just wouldn't shut up about like, fine, fine. You know, I bought one whole Bitcoin for 400 and I was like, I had to like go to a CVS or something, you know, And,~ um,~ and then it just didn't do anything for like three years. [00:23:19] Like it actually dropped down. It was like 200, 200 bucks for ever.~ Uh, ~and then it started to hockey stick up, went to like a thousand. Then I got like really obsessed and started, you know, checking it every day, every hour, every minute, you know, by, by, by, by, by, by, by, by, by, by. I just bought and held, bought and held. [00:23:33] Then went up to 10, 000, went up to 20, 000 and then dropped down. I mean, you, you know, ~um, ~and then I just held onto it for very long time and then sold it. I think bought little bits and pieces of coins and stuff and got another crypto and then needed to buy a house, you know, and cashed out, you know, ~um, ~and,~ uh,~ and then bought a house in 2022 with terrible interest rates, you know, ~um, ~but it was what we needed. [00:23:58] And when I was, [00:24:00] I got super obsessed in Bitcoin. I had a friend who. Had hundreds of Bitcoins, hundreds of them that he had bought for hundreds of dollars. You know, so he'd like, I don't know, he's, he lives in San Francisco. Invest, you know, he's an angel investor, been a bunch of a part of startups. He set aside 10 grand or whatever, threw it into something speculative and made a bunch of money off of that, I think made probably hundreds of thousands of dollars off of, off of that, but didn't make hundreds of millions of dollars off of it or tens of millions, you know, and I asked him, I said like, ~uh, ~do you regret that? [00:24:32] He was like, No, like I've been in enough kind of high stakes games to know, like you get in, you get out, like you move on. ~Um, ~and I could always get back in or whatever he said, but like. You can't play this game where it's like, well, coulda, woulda, shoulda, or what if this, or what if that, and I was the same way. [00:24:52] I was super obsessed to the point that I like, like I was talking to somebody the other day and, and they were talking about Bitcoin. I was like, what is that even at these days? I have no [00:25:00] idea. And then they told me, I was like, ah, don't tell me, but I think ideas are like that. They are actually abundant. [00:25:11] And,~ um,~ I, I was the kind of kid who would like make some money and just save it. You know, I had this sort of scarcity mentality towards money. I still do to some degree, but I've learned a lot, you know, since then. And I've learned that. At its essence, the point of money is to move, it's to transact, it's to flow, that's why you call it currency, it has to keep moving, money is just meant to provide for, you know, it's, it's meant to, to sort of, ~um, ~be a, you know, stand in for trade, you know, so it's, it's a wonderfully efficient way of trading,~ uh,~ goods and services. [00:25:46] And,~ um,~ but the point of money is, is to use it for things, you know? And so that's why I feel okay about buying a house with a Bitcoin. It's like, I have a house, you know, it's like a good thing.~ Um, ~and, [00:26:00] and I think ideas are that way too. Like ideas are functional. They have a function. They're, they're meant to do something, not just like. [00:26:07] Sit in a notebook somewhere [00:26:09] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. Or, [00:26:11] Jeff Goins: they're cheap and priceless. [00:26:13] Chaz Wolfe: yeah. And, and, and to the reverse, it's like just one good idea. It's not, it's not the end is you're not going to, you're not going to, you know, your whole wealth is not going to be off for one idea that can happen. We're not missing something if it's like, Oh no, but that's the one. And it's like floating away, you know? [00:26:28] Jeff Goins: Yeah. Any, any artists, any creative person that I know that's, or, you know, even an entrepreneur who's like holding onto their idea, you're holding onto a business idea or an invention or a poem or a song that you wrote or a novel or a book, you know, and like, you think this is it, like, it's so special that as soon as the world sees it, everybody's going to love it. You're deluded, you know, that's not how things happen. It's not like. Jeff Bezos was like, I have this really great idea for Amazon, you know, for an everything store and, and it's just going to work. It's like, everybody [00:27:00] thought that was a terrible idea for like 20 years. And it's not, it wasn't the idea of Amazon or Apple or even Tesla that makes these companies extraordinary. [00:27:11] It's the execution of the idea. And it's actually. Execution of idea after idea, after idea, after idea, after idea, and it's execution of idea,~ uh,~ in front of other people, like the market is necessary. How people respond to your idea is what actually determines whether or not we think of it as a good or bad idea. [00:27:33] And, and it's not like there are actual good or bad ideas. There are just ideas that people like, or don't like, we wouldn't be talking about Amazon today, if. People kept thinking it was a dumb idea, but eventually everybody was like, ah, like he, he got, it's [00:27:49] Chaz Wolfe: you got me [00:27:50] Jeff Goins: kind of undeniable, you know, like it worked. [00:27:53] Chaz Wolfe: for sure. [00:27:54] Jeff Goins: Yeah. [00:27:55] Hey Kings and Queens, Chaz Wolf. I want to talk to you about something that's super important to me. We [00:28:00] put a lot of time and effort, we meaning myself and my team into this podcast, into the content that goes out every single day. And if you have been getting any sort of value or insight from this, we want it to be able to reach other business owners too. [00:28:13] So we would love if you would like comment, share, leave a review, post, share again, all of the things. On social media, on all the different platforms, or even on the podcast mediums of Apple and Spotify. We would love to be able to get our content into more hands, more entrepreneurs, so they can grow their business as quick as possible. [00:28:32] Together, we are building a community of like minded entrepreneurs who are committed to growing their businesses to new heights. So let's do this. Let's help each other grow. [00:28:42] Chaz Wolfe: Let's talk about the value of, of writing. I mean, you, you write, you know, poems, you write books,~ uh,~ you know, maybe, maybe other things too, but for the listener right now, who's probably an entrepreneur, Who's probably busy, probably a lot like me before I had written,~ um,~ You know, really much, not [00:29:00] that I've really written much still, but I find value in writing now, but talking to the person first who is like writing, you have time for that. [00:29:08] And why, what value is in the listener? Just pausing for a minute and writing down their thoughts. [00:29:16] Jeff Goins: I mean, it's that you, you are capturing your thoughts,~ um,~ writing,~ uh, Uh, ~writing and reading together, help people think better and more clearly. ~Um, ~so if I could tell everybody to do two things, I would say, read more real books, physical books, not Kindle, not something on your, your laptop, not something on your, your phone screen, not an audio book. [00:29:39] ~Uh, ~now do whatever you want to do, but like, if I could challenge everybody, it would be read real books because it, it, it does something to, first of all,~ um, uh, ~ink on paper is much easier on the eyes to read than any kind of screen. E ink is better than, than a backlit,~ um,~ blue light screen, but. Paper is still the easiest [00:30:00] on your eyes. [00:30:00] ~Um, ~and it's just cooler, it's just cooler than a Kindle. You can smell it. ~Um, ~reading real books, especially this past year has really, really slowed me down and it's made me,~ um,~ less anxious, less jittery, less distractible,~ um,~ as an author, sadly for many, many years. I didn't read a lot of books. I would listen to a lot of books. [00:30:26] You know, I would consume a lot of content, but I wouldn't sit down and read a book. Very, very rare for me. ~Um, ~now it's pretty common. And, and I think reading real books is a really good discipline, even if it was just a few minutes a day. ~Um, ~cause it, it helps. It, it slows your mind down and we live in this hyper productive, very busy world where more is being asked of you. [00:30:48] So you're promising more and then like you're having to deliver more and it just kind of becomes this continual grind. Most people I know are very, very busy. ~Uh, ~they're not sleeping enough. They're not moving [00:31:00] enough. They're not slowing down enough. They're not spending enough time disconnected from the world via social media. [00:31:07] Listening to a podcast, reading your email, like to just be quiet with your thoughts. You know, ~um, ~that takes discipline and practice. Reading helps with that. The other thing reading done,~ uh,~ the other thing reading does, the best thing reading does is it humbles you. You think you have some brilliant idea and,~ um,~ you realize, 500 years ago. [00:31:29] ~Uh, ~reading is necessary to make you a better writer. Why writing? ~Uh, ~because writing allows you to capture,~ um,~ what you're thinking or what you thought about,~ uh,~ in the moment. And if, if habit number one is to read real books, habit number two is to write,~ uh,~ Something physical in a physical place, like a, like an actual notebook. [00:31:50] I hate my handwriting. It hurts my hands after a while. My wife and I went on a trip to a wine country,~ uh,~ California. A few months ago, I had a speaking gig at a conference [00:32:00] and she came along with me and we,~ um,~ went to like a friend's vineyard and drove around San Francisco. ~Um, ~but I forgot my laptop actually left it in my backpack in,~ uh,~ the car that we, we parked at the, at the airport. [00:32:15] And I was like,~ uh,~ I was like, you could run back and get it. I was like, one, I don't want to scramble to, I kind of like the adventure of going somewhere for like four or five days,~ um,~ without a laptop. No, I don't have a smartphone. So I just have this like little dinky. ~Uh, ~dumb phone that really doesn't do anything.~ Um, ~so I was like, well, [00:32:36] Chaz Wolfe: thing that the phone's supposed to do. [00:32:37] Jeff Goins: yeah, yeah, it just calls people. That's it. ~Uh, ~so I never use it,~ uh,~ and it was, it was super fun. But when we got to the, the, so we went through security, go to the airport, and I just bought a,~ um,~ a, a pencil and a notebook, and I wrote in that notebook all weekend, and I loved it. It's,~ um,~ it, it reminded me of why I journaled for many years. [00:32:56] ~Um, ~it, it kind of like reminded me of why I [00:33:00] stopped journaling, which is I just got too busy.~ Um, ~but I would wake up that every day, every morning of that trip, I would wake up and I would write a little bit in, in that notebook. And the point of it was not to publish it, not cause I thought this was some brilliant idea. [00:33:15] The point of it was just to write. ~Uh, ~Julia Cameron calls this morning pages. You write three pages every morning, just kind of. Download stream of consciousness. And she says, you know, you do it to get the cobwebs out. And it does feel that way. If you've ever sat down for like 30 minutes, you just written three pages. [00:33:33] kind of like put those somewhere else, turn the page, delete it, whatever, and then start writing, you're clearer, you're more focused. So I, I think the number one reason to write and, and read more,~ um,~ is because it will make you a better thinker and being a better thinker will make you a better writer. And then writing more will make like, it'll, it'll just kind of keep bouncing back and forth. [00:33:56] You will become more eloquent. You will become a better [00:34:00] communicator. ~Um, ~and, and because of these things, people will listen to you and want to believe you and follow you and pay attention to you. And that's tremendous power, you know, like, that you shouldn't have as a human, but you will have it. ~Um, ~but it, like, it, it's a good skill. [00:34:13] My,~ uh,~ first job out of college was as a writer. Somebody hired me to,~ Um, uh, ~to help them write ads as a copywriter. And then I, and then we worked together on an online magazine that we launched. And,~ um,~ he said to me, this is my first boss. He's still a friend of mine. It was 20 plus years ago. He said,~ um,~ he said, if he said, I see your writer, he says, If you can write well, you should never be without a job. [00:34:37] And I was like, well, sir, you know, I begged to differ because I don't have a job, you know, and he hired me. ~Um, ~but he was right in the sense that if you can become proficient at writing, not even like the world's best writer, but you can like learn how to spell and have decent grammar and be able to think well on paper, that's a tremendously valuable skill. [00:34:57] You know, somebody has got to write a business [00:35:00] plan. Somebody has got to send the email. And, and importantly, somebody at some point has to stand up in front of a group of people and capture attention, capture,~ uh,~ belief, persuade people. And ~uh, ~I'm grateful for those skills because whatever pickle I get myself into in life, I can usually talk, talk or white, write my way out. [00:35:20] I'm usually better at writing it than talking my way, but I think that, I mean, it's a, it's a great skill for that many other reasons. [00:35:27] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. I appreciate you're going deep on that. I think that,~ um,~ I find myself personally, I don't know if anybody else can relate to this, but when I write it is either what I, what I want to do is write in bullet points one, because I'm moving fast and I, and I want to, and I want to just, I want to hurry up quick and capture it all before it leaves my brain. [00:35:45] I want to capture what's in there. And there's just so much in there probably because I don't write enough. And then there's the other element where, you know, my mom grown up,~ uh,~ when you say eloquent and be able to speak, she was. Huge on language and being able to be precise in, in the [00:36:00] way that we wrote and the way that we spoke. [00:36:02] And so, ~um, ~I find myself. You know, like I don't even, I don't, I don't know who I'm writing for, but it's like, no, one's going to read this, but I feel like it has to be perfect. And so I'm like, ah, it takes so long. Nah, I won't do it. And so how does someone like me get to a place where I can just wake up journal and then throw it away or, or turn the page, as you say, where it just doesn't matter as much [00:36:27] Jeff Goins: Where what doesn't matter as much. [00:36:29] Chaz Wolfe: the, the result of what I'm writing. Like when I'm writing it, it's like I'm moving slow because I want it to be perfect. I want it to be written right with the right, you know, Language, [00:36:39] Jeff Goins: Yeah, I mean, I think that's okay. I think it's good to, to be exacting or to want to try to do it. Well, ~um, ~you know, the idea of the end justifying the means. ~Uh, ~is a uniquely American idea or, or a Western idea, which is like, there's a goal, there's an object, whatever I got to do to get there, [00:37:00] you know, is good. [00:37:02] Translate that to a culture like Japan, where everything can be a sort of ritual,~ uh, uh, ~and you want to be careful. You want to be precise. You want to do it well, because this is,~ um,~ what is required of this thing. I mean that the, I think of cooking, you know, I, I recently got up a walk,~ um,~ and we've been cooking everything in the walk lately. [00:37:29] And initially I was just like, turn it up hot and throw some oil in there and throw things in there. But I realized. With Asian cooking, there's a lot of precision involved, depending on the cuisine. ~Um, ~certainly with Japanese cooking,~ um,~ I would say with Korean cooking, a little bit of Chinese cooking. ~Um, ~and I cooked this dish one day and it was just like noodles and some sauce. [00:37:49] And I was like, that's it. Like I wanted like a hundred things in it. Like I like complicated things. And then I like watched this video and I reread the scene,~ um,~ the,~ uh,~ the, the recipe, [00:38:00] and then I just took my time with it. And two things happened. One, I really enjoyed the experience more. I was, even though it was like three ingredients, I was really kind of intentional with the timing of every step. [00:38:11] And I, I took my time. It wasn't a means to an end. It was the end and I enjoyed it. It was just fun to do. ~Um, ~and then two, it tastes better. Like it, it, it, the result was better. How that's analogous to writing is. When you are,~ um,~ the, the quality of your life and, and what you're able to produce as a creative individual is directly related to how good and clear of a thinker you are. [00:38:42] If you're a clear thinker, you're going to be an effective communicator. If you're an effective communicator, you're going to be able to lead and motivate and persuade people to do things that they might not otherwise Be able to, or want to do. If you can do that, you have power in the world. What you do with that is, is up to you. [00:38:57] You will be able to make money. You could get [00:39:00] elected for something like you can, you can do things. If you can gain attention and do something with it. ~Um, ~you are now an influential person and most people do not know how to do that at scale. This is very powerful tool to, to have. It's why. Almost every famous or powerful person throughout history at some point said, I need to write something down. [00:39:25] I have to record my life, my thoughts, my ideas. I'm going to hire a scribe to do it, or I'm going to do it myself, or I'm going to do, you know. Or I'm, or something like that, but that's, that's very, very important. So people understand that there's a direct correlation between power and influence and the written word, the ability to write well and to communicate well. [00:39:46] So my point is this,~ um,~ every morning that you do that, you are practicing that skill that will come out throughout the day. If you do it well, and you do it,~ um,~ with awareness and as much skill as you possibly can. The [00:40:00] process of it becomes enjoyable, not because you love doing this, but because you're a human and you don't actually know what you like and don't like for the most part. [00:40:09] And that there are so many things that you could like if you cared about doing them while you were doing it. ~Um, ~that's my, that's my feeling. I don't know. I do not like mowing the grass.~ Uh, ~and for years I, I had somebody mow the grass for me, but then when we bought this house, I thought, ah, I'm just going to do a small yard, whatever. [00:40:27] And,~ um,~ I don't love it every time, but when I take my time, when I give myself two hours, not 45 minutes before dinner, and I don't rush through it, but I use it as an opportunity to get outside, do some thinking, you know, smell the grass, just be present. Don't listen to anything. I'm not. I'm just thinking,~ um,~ I love mowing the grass. [00:40:48] And so the, the, the, the enjoyment doesn't come from the activity. It comes from how aware I am willing to be in that moment. And I think most things are that way. Not [00:41:00] maybe all things, you know, you can have your preferences, but, but most things are that way. And so this is a discipline in learning how to slow down. [00:41:07] So that you can pay more attention so that you can think more clearly,~ uh,~ and then you can communicate more clearly. And the next time somebody asks you your thought, your opinion, your idea. You're going to be sharper. You're going to be better. It's a workout. [00:41:21] Chaz Wolfe: yeah, I, I, I think you're a spot on, thank you for giving us that as you were saying that it kind of made me think of, I'm, I miss mowing,~ uh,~ we, we moved to some acreage, it takes. hours and hours and hours. And,~ uh,~ and I, I used to do it because of that. It was like, I could get away for like four hours and, and, and just lose myself. [00:41:42] I just put the headphones on. ~Um, ~I wouldn't listen to anything. Sometimes I'd listen to a book or something, but every now and then just think and for hours on end. And of course the lines, man, create the lines like you're talking about. [00:41:51] Jeff Goins: Yeah. Yeah. You're one of those crazy guys. [00:41:55] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. Yeah. [00:41:57] Jeff Goins: Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like the other [00:42:00] analogy I would give is like, ~um, ~you don't just go to a gym to get swole. ~Um, uh, ~you like, there's two ways to work out. One is I hate this. This sucks. Whatever. Whatever. By that, like all of the gym rats at my gym kind of love being there. [00:42:14] Like they, they liked that. They liked the vibe. They liked the scene. Yes. They're there to get gains and, and to get results, but they love being there. They like doing it and they're doing things for the most part that they like, except for maybe like day or whatever.~ Um, ~but I would say that like, you know, say writing a little bit every morning and then turning the page is like working on your technique and, and person who's serious about lifting or any kind of. [00:42:38] Oh, any kind of skill, but you know, in terms of working out your technique is everything, you know, and everybody knows it's like golfing, you know, here's just a million analogies, but it's like these little tweaks really, really matter. And obviously when you're dealing with like, I don't know, bench press or,~ um, uh, ~squat or something. [00:42:57] ~Um, ~there's like the vanity metrics, which is like, if I don't [00:43:00] totally do it just right, I might be able to get more, but I'm always But I could also hurt myself. And I think writing is that way. You could hurt people if you aren't, if you aren't precise in your language, if you don't know what words mean, you will, if you're better than average at this skill, if you learn how to write relatively well, you will have power over people in some way. [00:43:23] And if you don't know what to do with that. Or, or you weren't,~ um, uh, ~you aren't careful and precise and aware with this tool. You can cause damage. It's like, ~uh, ~an old entrepreneur friend of mine said, you know, the most dangerous thing for a man to have is too much money too soon. And, and, and too much time on his hands. [00:43:41] You know, it's like, you don't, you haven't learned how to use these resources. And I think a lot of us haven't actually learned how to use our brains. ~Um, ~and writing is a really, really powerful tool to keep writing and reading together to sharpen that, that tool over and over and over again. [00:43:58] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. I appreciate you,~ uh,~ [00:44:00] kind of putting those two things together. ~Uh, ~you know, the reading, the physical book,~ uh,~ writing daily, I think is incredible. ~Um, ~what about for the listener as we kind of wrap up here? I want, I want the listener to know what is a good, I mean, I think you've described what a ghostwriter does, but how can a ghostwriter help them? [00:44:15] Maybe they're,~ uh,~ in an industry where they've never thought about writing a book. Maybe they have thought about writing a book. How does partnering with, with someone like you, Jeff help them not only just execute the book, but Go to that next place that you help your authors go to. What does that look like for them? [00:44:30] Jeff Goins: Sure. ~Um, ~most people would say, you know, you should, you should write a book. You should write any old book because it's going to put you on a platform and establish you as an authority amongst your peers and blah, blah, blah, blah. The problem is. That's what most people are saying. That's what many people are doing. [00:44:45] And it's getting really, really crowded and really, really cluttered. And there's a lot of bad books out there now as a result of just put any old piece of junk out there. ~Um, ~I don't think that's why anybody should write a book.~ Um, ~because you're like everybody else, which is never fun. [00:45:00] And,~ um,~ and it doesn't do that. [00:45:01] It doesn't actually do that for most people. I think people should write a book because they want to go on a journey. Of discovery,~ uh,~ both discovery of maybe themselves, but certainly have a message or an idea that they want to share with the world. ~Um, ~I think you hire a ghostwriter or a collaborator and these are all. [00:45:21] Semantics, you know, means different things to different people. Some, some of what I do, you could call editing some of what I do, you could call,~ uh,~ you know, ghostwriting or collaborating or, or whatever. And so my job is really to help somebody figure out what they have to say.~ Um, ~figure out how they're going to say it and then come alongside them to help them say it, you know? [00:45:43] And I think somebody should hire a collaborator like myself to help them with that process. ~Um, ~if they're willing to go on a journey that will humble them and will change them in some way and out on the other side of it, because you've really [00:46:00] wrestled with this idea, in some ways you become an expert, at least at your own book. [00:46:06] ~Uh, ~so when I write. I never really know what it's about. I don't really know what I want to say. I have an idea. I have a little bit of an itch that I want to scratch, but the reason I start writing a book is because I want to learn. I want to go deep in a subject. You know, when I wrote the book, Real Artists Don't Starve, I read a hundred books about creative professionals who were successful. [00:46:28] Cause I wanted to understand if my hypothesis, which was that you don't have to starve to,~ uh,~ be a, a creative professional,~ um,~ like I wanted to know if it was true, you know? And when I wrote the Art of Work, which is the book became before that, a book about vocation. That was, again, it was like, How do you find a calling? [00:46:47] How do you find work that is meaningful? ~Um, ~and I interviewed 400 people as, you know, as part of writing that book. And so by the end of that journey. I didn't just have an idea [00:47:00] or a story or a five part, you know, formula to share. I had really kind of wrestled with this and there was a certain authority to my message and how I communicated it that wouldn't have existed otherwise. [00:47:13] And when you hire, say a ghostwriter. You are, if it's, if it's a good partner, basically hiring a collaborator, a coach, somebody who's done this professionally numerous times before and can help you not just take all of your random ideas and put them on 200 pages and call it a book, but actually help you think through this in a way that it actually makes sense. [00:47:39] Cause the reality is most people think they want to write a book. They think they have an idea for a book and they don't have like an idea for a chapter. Or an article, there's a common saying in publishing, which is this could have been an article. Like it was, is it a book or is it an article? You don't want to be somebody who writes a book that should have been an article and you don't want to be somebody who is [00:48:00] holding onto to some idea that should be a book and you just don't know how to get it out into the world. [00:48:05] Hiring a collaborator, ghostwriter, somebody who can help you in the writing process will ensure that you actually say something that's worth paying attention to. Okay. [00:48:15] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. Something meanwhile,~ uh,~ worth the value of the, of the purchase. You know, it's funny. I was, I was reading a book that kind of was along these lines. ~Uh, ~there was a section where he was talking about the value of reading a book versus,~ uh,~ of an article or a podcast and, and the time of preparation and actual information that goes into the podcast versus the article versus a chapter versus a book. [00:48:37] And I think it was something like 15 years of experience goes into. on, on average,~ uh,~ as opposed to listening to a podcast, which is, you know, like we've got experience, but, but you can only talk in such depth. ~Um, ~I mean, you, you took us pretty deep,~ uh,~ here, but, you know, like a conversation can only be what it is in 45 minutes,~ um,~ as opposed to, you know, just like the [00:49:00] stacked full of research and value inside of a book, which is in essence, what you're saying that as the, Writer that I'm gonna have to go on that journey of either stacking all that value together, or I, I,~ uh,~ I'm going to have something that's not very meaningful to read. [00:49:14] Jeff Goins: Yeah. Books are not reactive. They can't be. They're, they're necessarily slow. Like the fastest I'll write a book is in like three months, you know? ~Um, ~and that's pretty fast. You know, it usually takes, Six months, if not longer, but that's just the writing, you know, ~uh, ~there are usually,~ uh,~ years and years of thinking that go into the process of even starting to, to write the book. [00:49:38] Once you start writing the book, you're basically saying, here's everything that I know about this thing. And so taking your time and thinking clear, like thinking about a thing so that eventually you can think clearly about it and then writing. So you can see how clear your thoughts actually are, because if you think you have a great idea and you can't like. [00:49:56] Write it down. Clearly, you don't have an idea. Like, it's [00:50:00] just some crazy idea in your head. And I think just the discipline of writing and certainly writing a book forces you to slow down, forces you to get clear. ~Uh, ~and, and kind of forces all the bad ideas out. Cause you write it down. You're like, Oh, that's not stupid. [00:50:13] That's not, that's not good. And,~ um,~ yeah, I think it's the best way to call your own bluff and see how good your ideas actually are. Try to, you think you're a great idea? Write a book. I dare you. Oh, [00:50:24] Chaz Wolfe: ~uh, ~and if you need some help,~ uh,~ Jeff and his team can help you, but in all seriousness, Jeff,~ uh,~ you are incredible. You've got an incredible mind. ~Um, ~I appreciate you slowing down the conversation here today so that we could just,~ uh,~ hear some of the value that you've stacked away over these years of, of experiences,~ um,~ and books that you've written and, and,~ uh,~ people that you've worked with. [00:50:39] How can the listener connect with you? How can they find you? How can they hire you? If they want to write a book. [00:50:45] Jeff Goins: ~um, uh, ~so I, I run a small,~ uh,~ writing and editing agency,~ uh,~ with my wife and,~ uh,~ the best way to contact me is to just shoot me an email. Jeff at goins writer. com. ~Um, ~and,~ uh,~ you can check out our work. [00:51:00] If you're interested in being a client, we just fill out a little intake form and we talk through it. [00:51:03] We're,~ um,~ a boutique agency. And so we work with just a handful of folks every year. If we're not right for you, we'll refer you to somebody that is,~ uh,~ and you can find more about the work that we do at bestow B E S T O W lit. com. That's bestow lit. com. [00:51:20] Chaz Wolfe: Perfect. We'll have all that in the show notes. And,~ uh,~ as, as,~ uh,~ we've told you in the past, I'm excited that I know you. I'm excited that I get to agitate the way I think,~ uh,~ by having conversations like this with you. And,~ uh,~ I look forward to,~ uh,~ to writing our book with you. ~Uh, ~soon it'll be fun. ~Uh, ~we we've, we've been working on that message that you've been talking about. [00:51:36] So it's been, it's,~ uh,~ we'll be excited to do it. Jeff, thanks for being here, brother. Blessings to you, your family. Thanks for the time. [00:51:41] Thank you for listening to driven to win. I hope that you were able to pull out a few nuggets to go apply into your business right away. More importantly, though, I hope that you're realizing that it takes more to be successful than just being by yourself, doing it all on your own, carrying the weight all by yourself. [00:51:59] What I have realized, [00:52:00] not only in my own journey from multiple businesses and multiple different industries, and now interviewing over two or 300. Other very successful seven, eight and nine figure business owners is that it's tough to do it alone. And so gathering the Kings exists to bring together successful entrepreneurs. [00:52:16] In fact, we are putting together 1000 Kings specifically who are grateful, but not done. We're intentionally assembling Kings who fight tooth and nail for their business, family, and communities. And here's what we believe that in the pursuit of excellence in those areas. That it ignites within us the responsibility to govern power and forge a lasting legacy. [00:52:40] So if that relates and resonates with you and you know that you need people around you, sharp, qualified, other very successful business owners, I want you to go to gathering the kings.com. I want you to take a look at what we're doing and see if it makes sense for you to be part of our pursuit to 1000 Kings Talk [00:53:00] soon.