504 | How To Scale Your Business by Leading People the Right Way

Mar 24

[00:01:02] I hope you agree. You can't win without customers. If you don't treat your people right, they're not going to treat your customers right. And then you're leaving revenue and growth and profitability on the table. So, you know, a winning company needs a winning team.

[00:01:16] Chaz Wolfe: That's right. Yeah. You know, the only, the only thing that crossed my mind I was on the show here, I don't know, probably two months ago with with an AI kind of specialist and, and he probably would have been like, actually, I'm trying to build the first billion dollar company without people. But, but actually like how you filled it in with, you still need customers, which are people.

[00:01:35] And so. Okay. Cool. We, I've said for a long time, and this kind of goes along with, with gathering the Kings being a community for entrepreneurs, but I truly believe that anything you want in life can be found or is found in another person. And that, that's obviously a relationship the result of a business or, you know, the helping hand or like truly whatever you're looking for.

[00:01:54] A lot of that is in your spouse. A lot of that is in your, in our teams, a lot of those in our customers you know, whatever that might look like, [00:02:00] but, but it's always another human feels like, right.

[00:02:03] Alex Draper: I go one step further versus use the reframe from the use of the word. Human or person, I go soul, like the, each, my wife is a soul. My kids are a soul. My team members are a soul. And I think when you use that word soul, like the souls on my team, it just reframes you and what, what your obligation as a leader, as a business owner is to ensure that those souls are looked after.
[00:02:31] Chaz Wolfe: I think that that's actually really sobering. One of my questions that I asked folks that kind of come through the process of wanting to Join our community is do they ever feel like the heaviness of making big decisions that impact people, right? And, and as business owners, we make decisions that impact, of course, our spouse and our, and our kids and our future family, right?
[00:02:51] Our kids and grandkids and, but, but also our team members, their families, our community and our clients, their families. And it just kind of goes on and on and on. And it's like, you [00:03:00] start thinking about the impact. Of a single decision. And oftentimes for us entrepreneurs, it's like thousands, if not tens of thousands of people are impacted every single time we make a decision.

[00:03:10] And so when you say it like that, when you're like, no, these are just people I'm impacting, these are souls. It's like, am I making, am I making a good decision? Am I, am I being a good steward? Am I being a good leader? What does that do for you? Like that reframe, especially with clients that you've worked with, because you've kind of described this like bad leader scenario where you're just a number and we're only out for results.
[00:03:32] How have you seen that type of leader get shifted by this, you know, perspective of, of treating souls?
[00:03:41] Alex Draper: Yeah. I mean, I'll, I'll speak to my own story. So we're, we're 10 years old this year. Which is a feat in its own right. So I'll pat myself on the back 10 years in the making. It's the next 10 years that matter, but yeah, I'll take the first, first five years of DX at a hundred percent turnover of staff we, we struggled [00:04:00] probably nearly two, two bankruptcies and just an immense amount of challenge and it's, it's interesting.

[00:04:06] I started DX with the. Purpose of wiping out workplace toxicity and because of my own mindset and not seeing the team members as souls, I actually ended up being the person that I was trying to wipe out. I became that results driven growth minded winner, all costs person trying to lead a business that's trying to not do that.

[00:04:28] I became that person. And it was in the exit interviews and the understanding of the unintentional consequences of having. That heavy growth mindset of trying to build a huge business. I ended up being the person I was, I, I was trying to wipe out. So the, the change came to that epiphany of, if you're going to lead the people first movement, you've got to be people first.

[00:04:53] And, and, and just remember that through my action and my inaction and your inaction, all of us, right, listening to this podcast [00:05:00] through your action or inaction, you can either send someone home to their family, their friends. With a smile on their face or through your action or inaction, you can send them home having to worry about, you, worry about the business sometimes crying.

[00:05:14] And I, we only have, what, 4,000 weekends in the, in our, on average, in our, on our lives. It's short. None of those weekends should be spent having to worry about any of us on this podcast. It's, it's just a, a, a mis mis justice if we do that.

[00:05:30] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate the, the seriousness of that. And, and obviously the irony of you guys, you know, like you said, being the people first movement, but, but you not being people first, what, what have you seen? You know, for the leaders right now, because, because a lot of times, a lot of times leaders and entrepreneurs, espec[00:00:00] Chaz Wolfe: Alex, I appreciate you being here and you know, you just said, kind of said something right before we got started that, you know, driven to win.

[00:00:05] That's the show, but in order to win that. You know, in your opinion, you've got to, got to have people you're kind of this people leader dynamic person, but, but why, why have you come, you know, locked and loaded with this zero chance you're going to win without people? What, what makes you say that?

[00:00:24] Alex Draper: Having, having lived it and breathed it for many years and been on the recipient, recipient end of a lack of a good leader or a leader that is driven by results only at all costs. I understand the consequences and I truly, truly believe having lived it, that if you don't have a team that has your back and.

[00:00:44] Are performing at their best, then we're just leaving, we're leaving money on the table, we're leaving ideas on the table and to grow a business like I've been trying to do for the last 10 years. You're just getting in your own way if your people don't have your back. And I truly [00:01:00] believe you can't win without people.
ially ones that might be listening right now, they're just trying to like make it happen.

[00:05:53] And, and you kind of described the first five years as kind of that, you didn't say that, but. Yeah. A lot of times that's what I've seen in my [00:06:00] experience, but and then also in several of our members is like, it's not that they're not trying to take care of their people, but but what they're really more focused on is just survival and talk about how those things correlated together like survival and maybe even just trying to like, get by gets like, you know, the overlook to like, being a good person and taking care of people, you know,

[00:06:20] Alex Draper: Yeah. Let me just, anyone listening. You know, it's, it's hard to have to focus your time and energy on culture and effective leadership when you're struggling to run a business. It's, it's hard, right? We only have so much energy. And if you're saying yes to this, you got to say no to something. We just can't do everything.

[00:06:40] And I agree the first five years was, was survival, but it was, it was at a cost to both my, my family and all the families of those. Team members that came through my business and it's interesting you use the word survival. You know, nothing, not much has changed in 300, 000 years. We've just swapped out saber tooth tigers for, for bosses [00:07:00] and you lot listening.

[00:07:01] My, my question of course is do your, do your team see you as a, a saber tooth tiger and are fearful of you or do your team see you as the safe blueberry that they can eat and, and therefore do their best work and be their best selves. But it's interesting that that's survival. We're just survival creatures.

[00:07:18] Silence.

[00:07:28] leadership, ineffective leadership, poor teamwork, collaboration, all the things that enabled us to survive as a business. If your team are in survival mode and in fear mode, they can't help you.

[00:07:38] And I think that's the biggest problem. I can't solve all the problems as an entrepreneur. I started the business. I've got some insight, mostly through the mistakes that I've made. But at the end of the day, I need, I need my team to be speaking up early, speaking up often. I need them to tell me when I screw up.

[00:07:54] I need them to tell me when I'm doing things right. So I do more of it. I need them to come with ideas that challenge the status [00:08:00] quo so I can innovate and create more stuff. But they are only going to do that when they're not in survival mode. So I make it as simple as possible. It's, it's what can we do as entrepreneurs, owners, and leaders to create an environment where we rip out that fear and people can, can step in, step up and lead from whatever seat that they're in, but it goes back.

[00:08:22] So that's hard when you're running the business in the business, you. You don't have the time or your brain is telling you that anyway, to actually work on the people, because if you're not working on the people, they're not going to work for you.

[00:08:35] Chaz Wolfe: yeah, exactly. It's a, it's a catch 22 when you really think about it, but for the ones that have a business where they know that maybe they're not in survival mode any longer, but. And they know that people are important, but they don't know where to start. You kind of mentioned already what I would call a lot of soft skills and in your book care, it's kind of funny here.

[00:08:55] It's like, it's nothing about the cuddly type of care, which I love that line, [00:09:00] but you know, care stands for clarity, autonomy, relationships, and equity. I want you to talk about these because. You kind of just along with what you just, you kind of toted off several kind of like EQ type things that a leader needs to have in order to care about people and some of these are kind of right into that.

[00:09:15] And so clarity, autonomy, relationships, equity. Let's talk about how that that applies to the person who's maybe not survival mode any longer, but they're listening right now going. I know that I need to up level my team. I know that I need to take good care of people. I'm a little bit confused on how to do that.

[00:09:28] Alex Draper: Yeah. I love the, the, the, the reframe because I truly, I agree. There's, there's nothing soft about leadership, right? Aside from parenting, which I've got a seven year old and a six year old, that's challenging, but leading my team is probably just as challenging, right? Humans are challenging. We are all wonderfully unique.

[00:09:47] So there I. I always try and reframe this when I'm talking to, to leaders and walking them through, look, there's nothing soft about leadership. So I agree. There's nothing cuddly about care. It's, it's the hard [00:10:00] stuff. We call care the human skills to get the hard stuff done. So clarity, autonomy, relationships, and equity, the book is called and care to win, that's our platform because as we talked about at the start.

[00:10:12] You're less likely to win, like what if you're trying to win unless people have your back. And I just call that trust. I hope you agree. Nothing good happens in a personal relationship with friends, kids, your wife, your partner, or in a team without trust. I think trust is that foundational element for amazing things that happen.

[00:10:31] And when it's lacking, it's a, I call lack of trust, the biggest expense in the P and L that no one talks about. Yeah, it's a trust foundational non negotiable, I'd say. So clarity, autonomy, relationships, and equity is essentially as a leader, how I build trust and just so that, you know, and we all know there's no net neutral when it comes to trust building through my action or inaction, I'm either building it.

[00:10:56] where I'm eroding it. There's no neutral. Every, every [00:11:00] email I send, every time I talk to someone, every time I don't talk to someone, every time, every time I do something, I'm literally building it or eroding it. So care is, is something so darn simple that hopefully we could all remember it. Going back to survival these are just the four dimensions of survival.

[00:11:20] So just think about this in the old days. If we didn't know where it was safe to eat, It meant death. If we didn't know who was on sabre tooth duty that night, we'd all get eaten. So that clarity, we all crave it. And as a leader, when I starve my team of the clarity that they need, their brains go into fear mode, threat circuitry is triggered.

[00:11:41] And they're going to shut down and not perform at their best. So it's, it's simple. We've got to provide our teams a clarity that they, they crave. Same with autonomy. So autonomy is just a simple brain craving. If there was a T Rex attack, I felt more comfortable when I was, if I was to run into the cave myself, if you were carrying me.

[00:11:58] I'm like, that doesn't feel very safe. And [00:12:00] we call that micromanaging. When you try and tie the shoelaces of your team versus let them tie their own shoelaces, you know, if you try and tie them too much, they get a little bit upset because again, the threat circuitry gets triggered. They don't like to be controlled.

[00:12:12] Everyone wants to have that element of, of agency and control. So that autonomy is something that they crave. And again, if you steal it from them, threat circuitry is triggered, fear, not going to trust you, problem. You give them the right levels of autonomy. Holy crap, brain spark up, perform at their best or have your back, trust is built.

[00:12:30] Relationships, going back to the tribe, if my attributes, values, and as a human, I didn't feel like I belonged on this tribe, my brain's telling me. I'm going to get excommunicated and kicked off the tribe. And if I'm kicked off the tribe, I'm out in the jungle on my own, I'm going to get eaten. So we all crave this sense of community and sense of belonging.

[00:12:52] And again, if you steal it from someone, threat circuitry is triggered, see the fear, not going to trust you problem. If you create that sense of, [00:13:00] of purpose, people feel valued. You feel like they got to know them for who they are. They feel like a sense of belonging. They'll trust you. Good things happen.

[00:13:08] And last one, equity. We, we, the definition of this one, I know it's a little of a touchy subject right now, equity, but we've made it real simple. Our definition of equity is adapting to the unique needs of every person. That simple. Like you're unique. I'm unique. Every listener here, we're all weird and wonderful in an uncertain way.

[00:13:28] And when I adapt to you and I treat you how you want to be treated versus how I want to be treated, brain spark up, trust is built, amazing things happen. So care is just simply, you know, if you care for your people with basic reciprocity, they'll care back. And that's sort of the basics of, of care.

[00:13:47] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, I love the, the intentionality between each one of those, the, you know, the, the skills underneath to be able to develop and, and provide care. [00:14:00] What does that list look like? I mean, does someone just all of a sudden start? Oh, like, oh, great. I'm going to provide clarity and I'm going to start giving autonomy and not tying your shoelace anymore.

[00:14:09] Or are there other skill sets that they can start building on now or that they should be building? In the process of becoming a good leader to be able to develop care. Silence.

[00:14:22] Alex Draper: engineers will like this. I hope it's, it's simple. So think of, of the linear effect. So clarity,

[00:14:30] Chaz Wolfe: Silence.

[00:14:37] Alex Draper: lot of autonomy because most entrepreneurs do.

[00:14:40] I have a very low preference for clarity because I can take a sentence and I can roll with it. I'm cool with that. But my COO. Man, that one sentence would confuse the crap out of her. So I got to provide her a 10 page document when I only needed a sentence. Maybe she needs way less autonomy that I'm giving her.

[00:14:57] She likes her shoelaces to be tied a little bit, but she also [00:15:00] wants some help. So clarity, the care equation is clarity. When you have the right levels gives you the ability to, to give autonomy. Cause if you try and give autonomy without clarity, that's chaos and confusion. So you can't really give autonomy.

[00:15:13] This is the, the, the. Dichotomy for entrepreneurs that they, they can't get to grips with is high clarity, high autonomy. Clarity is not stealing autonomy. Clarity is the what, autonomy is the how, relationships is the who, and equity is the, the glue. So it's linear. Clarity gives you the opportunity to, to give autonomy.

[00:15:34] When you give autonomy, it gives you the time and energy to build relationships. And when you build relationships, you can be equitable. And one of those does not work without the other. It's a very linear approach. Bottom up, top down.

[00:15:45] Chaz Wolfe: yeah. [00:16:00] Silence.

[00:16:14] Alex Draper: questions.

[00:16:15] Any ambiguity in the answer to those questions between you and your team, the more variance, the more dissonance, the more Performance issues you're going to have, so it's just hard wiring, sort of the habits of clarity making sure that you're on the same line of the same page in every meeting. Cause I hope you all agree.

[00:16:32] We all just run from meetings to meetings when we're not clear

[00:16:37] Chaz Wolfe: ahead

[00:16:40] Alex Draper: issues. So the habits of clarity is more about what making sure on the same line of the same page. The habits of autonomy, it's more about. I always say you got two ears and one mouth, use them in that ratio.

[00:16:54] So the habits of autonomy is to ensure in every meeting you speak less. Then the person you're [00:17:00] speaking to, make sure that everyone has a voice, make sure that you're asking the, what, who, what, when questions and not the why question. So the habits of autonomy is to ask more than you actually make statements.

[00:17:12] And when you do that, you actually end up giving autonomy. So it's the power of curiosity. The habits of relationships is. Again, going back to just meetings, because this is really where the effective use of care is, it's in meetings with your team, with your clients, with your wife, with your partner, it's, it's when you meet with someone, use these habits relationships is sort of connection before content, right?

[00:17:34] Spend, just spend, don't get straight down to work. You need to have time in order to understand who, who's doing the work. So always being curious about the people on the other end, making sure that there's always connection time within meetings, and it's just not work, work, work, work, work and of course, having those one on ones and then being about them, not about work and equity.

[00:17:57] Is a byproduct of your ability to provide the [00:18:00] effective levels of C, A and R. Equity is a feeling. It's a, it's that notion of, I feel I have been adapted to by my boss. They're treating me how I want to be treated and therefore I will perform at a much better expectation than, than if they didn't. So E is that output and the C and the A and the R are the inputs.

[00:18:20] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, I love that. You said a couple of things I mean, first off all of this, they should hit a pause and rewind and at least listen to at least two or three more times. You've given absolute gold here. But you've said a couple of things in two different pieces of the show so far that I want to bring together and ask you a little bit more of, you just talked about relationship and, and how, you know, we can, you know, basically spend the time there past the, the transaction, you know, right.

[00:18:46] And we're doing that obviously with, with our team members our, you know, all the relationships that we have, but specifically kind of keeping this to, to the business. Because I see so many entrepreneurs that are, you know, results driven, obviously they're driven to win, they want [00:19:00] to, they want to, they want to do big things and you know, for all intents and purposes, a team member is a part of the equation and not to say that that's wrong, but what you're suggesting is that it goes beyond the equation and then we see them as a person and even as a soul and we start to create these other you know, sticky factors with them through our relationship and then tied to that at the beginning, you know, you said that this, this, This negative leader who we don't want to be kind of treats people like a number.

[00:19:26] It's again, it's that cold transactional type of leadership where it's expectations about results only. And I remember working in an environment like that where, I mean, I'm a high, I'm a high performer. I'm not, I'm not necessarily needing a lot of attention or, or feel goods or pats on the back.

[00:19:45] Like I'm going to win because I want to win. this was my first experience being a high performer in an environment where zero we're given nothing. And it was literally [00:20:00] all transactions. And then, and even when you did win, it wasn't like, I mean, it was kind of celebrated, but it was. It was definitely more of the expectation, which I, as a entrepreneur and winner, I'm like, man, how many times have I created that environment in my own space?

[00:20:15] Like, how many times have done it to myself? You know, where the expectation is to win at the highest level, no excuses whatsoever. And so I remember being in this environment where I absolutely was just a number and I was like an executive. And I was just a number. It was crazy. And what I learned from that was like, man, I don't necessarily know if I need to, you know, go outside every two minutes and sing Kumbaya, but like just a little bit of human interaction and some, some relationship and maybe some soul to this thing, like you described, Alex.

[00:20:46] And so it's like all these things together, because The listener right now is probably a high driven entrepreneur. They've probably done the same thing that you and I have just talked about doing. How can they, how can they kind of jump past some of those things and go, okay, like I can see this [00:21:00] soul, this person and and do things you were talking about with the relationship, like really make it past the transaction.

[00:21:05] You know what I mean?

[00:21:06] Alex Draper: Yeah, and I love, I love that a number, not a song. I'm going to use that. Right. So just it's, it's that total reframe from humans and numbers and to, to humans as souls. As hearing you speak, just remember for all of us. So I'm a low C. I don't crave much clarity. I'm a high A. I crave a lot and I give a lot of autonomy.

[00:21:28] I'm a low R like you. I'm also built to win. I, I, it's just part of my makeups. Most of us start a business because we want to win. And that's typically the makeup of a, someone who wins low C, low C, high A, low R. To your point though, just because I'm a low R doesn't mean I don't need a sense of connection.

[00:21:47] And to your point, when it's totally. mitigated and there's nothing. You just go, you start to question your motives. You start to question what the am I doing here? But you still need a little bit. So just, just remember for all of [00:22:00] us, it's, it's not about you. It's about them. So we're here to lead the people first movement to be people first is to be equitable, which is to adapt to the unique needs of every person.

[00:22:08] So it's just, for me, it's just a conversation. It's every conversation. It's getting to know what the preferences are of your team. One of my team members is a very, very high C. So I, I am ensured that in every interaction with that member, that I am giving them the clarity that they need to perform at their best and to win.

[00:22:26] I'm a low C, I have to put a lot of energy into that. I'm a low R, I just love to get, get shit done. So I don't need much of that connection time, but there's people on my team who do. So, you know. Whereas I'd spend five minutes with myself on relationships, I'm going to spend an hour with one of my team members who just needs way more.

[00:22:47] Now, again, it's going to cause me more energy to do that, but it's about treating them how they want to be treated. So it's just make sure it's, it's one of those biases in the brain. Where [00:23:00] we tend to project projection bias, we tend to project ourselves what we believe are our preferences are on other people.

[00:23:07] And we assume that everyone wants lots of autonomy. They don't some, some want a small box. I want a big box. We project that everyone wants lots of clarity. They don't. So I just go back to treat people how they want to be treated. I'm, I'm giving you the. core components of trust and high performance, but it's not a one size fits all.

[00:23:26] And I think it's just a simple conversation. Hey, when you have this vocabulary, I think it's just, that's what care is. It's a vocabulary of leadership. And when we're all on the same page, most of our work is, is, is putting the language of care into the whole team so that in every conversation, like, do you have enough clarity?

[00:23:42] I'm glad you asked that question because. No, I don't. Am I spending enough time building relationships with you? Yeah, you're good, man. In fact, you could probably spend less and I'm still cool. Great. Didn't know that. So it's, it's just a conversation. I think it gives you the, the, the language to have really good conversations.

[00:23:58] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, that's awesome. My business partner with [00:24:00] gathering the Kings, Jake he, he uses this this treat people how they want to be. How you would want to be treated phrase is golden rule. You know, treat people how you would want to be treated. And there's a book, I can't remember, but he phrases it all the time.

[00:24:12] But the platinum rule how you should treat people, how they want to be treated. And we use different surveys and stuff like that. Personality traits surveys that they give us access, but I love how you're using your care system to be able to. You know, basically categorize where people are so that I could know how to interact with them.

[00:24:30] Because again, to your point, to this platinum rule, as opposed to the golden rule, if I want to treat some people, how they want to be treated, as opposed to how Chaz wants to be treated, they might want higher relationship. They might want less autonomy. They might want more clarity because very similar to you.

[00:24:45] It's like, well, I don't necessarily need that. Or I do want a bunch of that. Or and we're not trying to just, you know, spill what we, what we desire on our team, but we're trying to meet them where they're at and actually. Show up for them, which is a whole nother conversation about leadership, which is kind of flipped upside down, which is [00:25:00] I'm going to do what's best for them as opposed to doing what's best for me and then having them serve me.

[00:25:04] Right. You want to talk about that for a second? Cause that's, that's a whole nother.

[00:25:08] Alex Draper: That's, you just opened up a can of worms there, Chaz. So, so let's just, let's really de pack that for a second. So let's go back to survival. Machines, brain and what gets in the way and what hinders our ability to do this stuff, right? So all this is all so simple, right? Care, four dimensions, piece of cake, treat people how they want to be treated.

[00:25:29] All of this seems so simple in theory, but hard in practice. Why? We've all got a brain. So again, brain's primary purpose is to keep me alive. Effective team work and building high performing teams is not about keeping me alive. It's about keeping my So brain it's processing between what, 11 to 60 million bits of information every second.

[00:25:54] I'm sure most listeners here have at least five screens open. One for this, one for their email, [00:26:00] one for social media. We're, we're being bombarded with information between 11 and 60 million bits of information. Brain is a threat scanning machine trying to keep me alive, scanning all this information, processing it.

[00:26:12] So to do that, it's created heuristics. So heuristics are just simple brain shortcuts to make quick decisions, to process all this information as quickly as possible so that I can continue to scan for threats. The negative effect of a heuristic is called a bias. There's about 188 biases. We just talked about one, the projection bias.

[00:26:31] A bias is just simply an assumption. It's an assumption about something and it's these assumptions that get in the way of our ability to be people first and to adapt and to treat them how they want to be treated because your brain's telling you, keep me alive as a leader. My job is not to keep me alive.

[00:26:47] It's to keep the team alive and to get them to be high performing so that we kick ass and win. So these assumptions basically just get. if not tended to, are what unintentionally causes us, even [00:27:00] with the best intentions, not to be effective leaders, and that trust is not where it needs to be, and toxicity is in its path.

[00:27:06] Let me give you a quick example. If I was to say the word ruler, What's ruler mean to you, Chaz?

[00:27:13] Chaz Wolfe: Well, there's a couple different definitions of the word ruler, but obviously, I'm going to go to the king, you know, ruler, someone who's ruling over a people or, you know, governing.

[00:27:22] Alex Draper: Okay. So ruler to me is a metric ruler, right? So, so if we were in a team meeting right now and I'm like, Hey guys, can you go build me a ruler? Your initial reaction is, sure, easy. Got it. Cause you're making the assumption. You know what a ruler is. I'm like, cool. We call that the illusion of agreement bias when two groups of people unknowingly assume that they're on the same page and a natural fact there's a bit, there's a dissonance between one word or group of words.

[00:27:48] That's the illusion of agreement bias. The law of least efforts. I go back to shoelaces. My brain's basically telling me it's quicker and easier to tie your shoelaces because of all these deadlines that are going on right now. And [00:28:00] I have all the technical expertise as the entrepreneur that it is to let you tie your own shoelaces.

[00:28:04] Again, so that speed, that, that bias of quicker and easier proximity bias. We tend to coalesce and build more connections with the people next to us because it's quicker and easier than it is to actually engage a, for example, a hybrid team, I'll spend more time in my Chicago team than I will want the person who's sitting in Oregon, and if I don't intentionally combat my bias of proximity, then that person will get left out.

[00:28:27] So there's 188 reasons why this stuff is really difficult if we don't manage our brain.

[00:28:33] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, that's incredible. The speed bias that you kind of went through. I'm sure every entrepreneur was going. Oh, no. It's funny because this is a, this is a, an ongoing thing with several of my teams, but, but speed speed is always a friend until it's not. Right. And I, and I loved how you kind of described, naturally I'm going to want to X, Y, Z as especially a high performer and speed is going to be a big part of that.

[00:28:56] But, but I think if, if it. If it's for the [00:29:00] transaction, if it's for the win, and it sacrifices things that I also now know that are important then then I'm just I'm blinded to the things that I'm either losing out on or losing all together. And so,

[00:29:13] Alex Draper: We call that the rush to solve bias, Chaz, which is, you know, as Einstein would say, if I've got an hour to solve a problem, I'll spend 55 minutes thinking about the problem in five minutes going to, to solutions. Our brain's telling us, screw that. Let's go straight to solutions. And, and you end up missing opportunities to do other things and do things better when we just.

[00:29:34] It's the biggest bias for entrepreneurs, I think is the rush to solve bias or we tend to, to jump to conclusions and that speed versus actually look at perspective and all of the greater things. And that law of least efforts bias also in the combination of those two really can hinder our ability to, to be even more effective.

[00:29:52] Chaz Wolfe: oh, yeah, I couldn't agree more just earlier today. Even I was working with the consultant who's helping me kind of put together some information [00:30:00] for 1 of our events and. And I, I just wanted to get down to it and just like, let's solve it. And and he took me through this hour and a half long process and we didn't even come close to even talking about the solutions because we, we, we did this prompt the prompter through chat, GPT, and we spent literally 90 minutes.

[00:30:20] And we haven't even developed the final prompt, let alone the actual solution of the thing that we're trying to solve. And I was like plucking my eyeballs out at the same time, recognizing how important this was and going, okay, I'm, I am going to submit to this because I totally see. The, you know, taking, you know, 55 minutes to sharpen the ax and then five minutes to chop down the tree approach.

[00:30:47] I see that, but man, is it tough here in the moment to like actually do it? It is tough, especially for entrepreneurs, you know?

[00:30:54] Alex Draper: It isn't. I love that story because it is your brain is saying, come on man, let's get on with it. Let's [00:31:00] go. And, but you know, the patient's, the patient's, but you'll get to, I think we spend a lot of our time. In reactive mode as entrepreneurs, because we're just fixing crap that shouldn't have, we shouldn't have to fix.

[00:31:16] We're duplication of effort, rework, shit downstream that we could have fixed upstream, but to your point, we're just like, let's just go. It's right through that rush. So it's, that's a big problem in our industry.

[00:31:29] Chaz Wolfe: You know, it's so interesting as this is kind of unfolding. I'm thinking about all these other circumstances. You know, we do several roundtable type environments inside of our community, some virtual, some in person you know, boardroom type settings where we're, you know, sharing about our businesses and our lives and, and, and going around the table and tearing things apart and building them back together.

[00:31:48] And it's so interesting to me how some of Oh. Some individuals and I can I'm a huge observer. I'm a huge relationship guy. Now. I don't know if I was always or maybe I was, I just [00:32:00] didn't know how to articulate those things early on as a, as a young as a young man. But I watch everything like this podcast right now is killing me because, oh, we have to have to have to have upgraded material and equipment.

[00:32:11] And so I get to look at a camera and not your face. And so I keep looking over here. Catching your face going like, okay, yeah. Like I want to look at him, but I can, I can think about being in these scenarios and I'm watching people's faces and I'm watching people's body language because I think it tells a whole book of a story and I'm watching this bias that you're talking about. Person in the hot seat is sharing the person over here or maybe multiple people, they already have the solution or what they think is the solution. And it's like, it's exploding on the inside and they do everything that they possibly can to just. Keep quiet or not walk out of the room. And I remember when I first started to see this, I'm like, okay, well, like maybe this person's talking too slow or maybe this is this a really a dumb problem because they already had it [00:33:00] solved.

[00:33:00] Like, within a few minutes, I've come to realize that that's not the case at all. And actually, a lot of those times, those guys are high performers, their ability to not see the full picture to get all the details to be super curious. Is actually starving them from from better solutions, which is what you were just describing.

[00:33:18] They're solving problems so quickly and sometimes unnecessarily that it's actually causing more problems, right? Silence.

[00:33:50] Alex Draper: I can go back to clarity. Let's get more clarity. So that I can challenge with my own solution is actually the right solution is that again, I'll go back to the use of care and [00:34:00] leadership. It's Look let's not move to solutions until we are crystal clear.

[00:34:04] Let's define what crystal clear looks like. So to stop these, these, these solutions being bombarded in, we tend to jump to solutions and go straight into it when we don't have the clarity. I think we just got to slow, slow as smooth, smooth as fast. And that's my job as a leader. Is to slow the process down, combat my own bias, and make sure that we're not jumping to solutions before we're crystal clear on what we're even solutioning in the first place.

[00:34:30] And that's, that's to your point, it's where so much time is wasted.

[00:34:34] Chaz Wolfe: it's crazy really to think about it because I mean, we've all done this but the, the, the amount of. It's actually sad, really, when I think about my own history, how many times, because I was moving so fast, and I look at it now, it's like, okay, well, okay, would I have done it differently? Probably not.

[00:34:52] I've learned a bunch, but, you know, you solve so many problems so fast. That I now actually believe that [00:35:00] I'm the only one that can solve these types of problems, which then isolates me even further to bottleneck. Right? And so not only am I the one solving quote, unquote, all the problems I'm solving so many problems that aren't probably a real problem, or I'm actually creating some of these because I'm just moving so fast, not getting all the details. Yeah, I'm just like years and years and years and probably millions of dollars gone, you know, but, but, but this is the story.

[00:35:28] Alex Draper: But, but then, you know, you've learned the hard way, the school of hard knocks. Right. And I, that's okay. So. And this goes to the importance of, you know, when you take on that leadership position, whatever it is, whether it's a team of me, a team of two brand new entrepreneur, we were leading a larger team.

[00:35:47] These are, leadership is learned, right? It's not a, it's not a skill you were born with. Like would you get into a car would you get into a plane if you knew that the pilot didn't have sufficient training? [00:36:00] I hope not. Would you, would you let someone operate on you if you knew that the surgeon didn't have the necessary training?

[00:36:06] I hope no. Why do we let people operate on people or operate on souls without the necessary training? That's all of these are just the unintentional consequences of not knowing. Imagine how much more we achieve if we would just slow down, spend some time. Developing ourselves as leaders to do this stuff, because when we are not wired, we're not born with the ability to do this, to check our biases, to slow down, to ask questions, to not jump to solutions.

[00:36:34] This is all natural wiring, which is the opposite of actually what High performing teams do, they actually do the opposite of all the stuff that we've just talked about in the last 15 minutes. But we've done it because we do it because we've learned by our own mistakes. But to your point, how many millions and millions are wasted every second because of that ineffective leadership, because no one knows that just do the best that they can.

[00:36:55] And I just don't think doing the best you can is good enough.

[00:36:58] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, yeah. That phrase that, you know, our [00:37:00] leaders born. I know that was, it's kind of like a topic that you kind of wrestle with. Excuse me. You did a good job of kind of giving that, you know, I think the same thing for entrepreneurs. I mean, there might be some like things that maybe you're more prone to right to to leadership because of maybe as much, you know, the little clarity or the high autonomy.

[00:37:18] But, but the truth is, is that all of these are skill sets and, and we can learn all of them and we can be proficient and master them over the course of time and, and an effort towards these things, what, you know, other than grabbing your book, which will be in the show notes, what, what's a great way for someone to kind of start building on these skill sets for them to be able to grow as a leader.

[00:37:38] Okay.

[00:37:44] Alex Draper: think it's, it's being curious. We all. We all have our limitations and, and leadership is a, it's a journey you never get there, right? You're never the perfect leader and you never have a flawless team. So just step one, you never [00:38:00] get there. It's a, it's that growth mindset of you're not there. So number one, please, none of you, ego is a culture killer.

[00:38:09] Ego is a leadership killer. Don't be that asshole. Ego. Don't think that you're the best, the best thing since light spread. You're not, you're just human. So let go of that ego. I guess that's step one. No one's born to lead. Leadership is a learned skill like art, cooking, and golf. You can only ever get better.

[00:38:26] So step one, have that mindset. Well, with that mindset, then if I believe I can only get better than spend every day, every week getting better, whether that's reading books, whether that's, I think the most purest and best way to improve is actually to engage your team and get feedback. It's a, it's a lost skill in the workplace of actually sitting down with someone and going, look, I'm trying to get better at clarity.

[00:38:51] So, you know, I'll ask my direct reports. I'm trying to get better at Clarity. I know I'm not providing you the best I could do. And I'd like to really hone this, [00:39:00] sharpen this, this knife here. Can you give me some feedback on what I'm doing well and what I can improve on? I just think that in its purest, simplest sense is the best, the way that all of us can get better every day.

[00:39:13] Your team experience you every single day, the good, the bad, and the ugly. And I challenge, you know, don't answer this question, but how many of you intentionally, on a regular basis, whether it's weekly, daily, monthly, sit down to get feedback, specific feedback, not who can you give me some feedback? Can I get some feedback on how I'm providing you clarity?

[00:39:35] Can I get some feedback on how I'm giving you the right levels of autonomy? Can I get some feedback on my ability to build trust and relationships? What can I, what's working? What's not working? That is the, that is continuous improvement, right? It's, it's go to war, just like the army after action reviews, you do it, you step back from it, you get the feedback, you learn from it, you do it again.

[00:39:56] How many of us have that as a, as a mechanism for [00:40:00] our how we run our businesses?

[00:40:01] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, that's huge. I mean, just slowing down enough to do that, right? And recognizing the power in asking those types of questions and then waiting for those answers. And on top of that too, if the listener right now is thinking, well, my people wouldn't give me a direct answer. Wouldn't give, you know, wouldn't, wouldn't be honest.

[00:40:21] Then that might be the answer, you know,

[00:40:25] Alex Draper: Well, give me a call because that's, that's, you know, my, my job's to rip out silence from team. So if, if I don't give you an answer, well, what have you not done? You haven't built trust. So what's going on? Let's strip that back because that when you build trust. People just give it to you. That's why my wife tells me how much I suck every day because we trust each other.

[00:40:47] And do I get defensive? Hell no. I'm like, yeah, bring it on, man. My kids trust me. This, that little microcosm of an environment is what we should have in a workplace where people have the trust to speak up early, speak up often and [00:41:00] be transparent. And if if you're not getting feedback all the time.

[00:41:04] You've got a problem, right? If there's crickets in your team and they're not talking about what's working, what's not working, there's, if there's not conflict, you've got a trust problem. And if you've got a trust problem, man, you're, you're leaving lots of money on the table.

[00:41:15] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. We I, this is probably six months or so ago. We did a short little call, you know, on the five dysfunctions of a team from Patrick Lince, Lencioni or Linchoni. Jake and I are both working genius certified. So we're kind of in his swirl a little bit, but. But this idea of trust really is a domino effect, really, and it's kind of hard to have the, the elite results that comes from a, from a high performing team without, I mean, this is never going to happen one, but then there's so many other things that happen, you know, in that in that, in that kind of cascade of effects.

[00:41:53] Alex Draper: Yeah. His triangle, right? The bottom of the triangle of the five dysfunctions, go figure. And, [00:42:00] and, and that's why I love, I love his work too. I'm a big, big, big fan. The motive is his favorite, my favorite book of his. But if you think about that bottom, the bottom part of the triangle trust, well, then you put care underneath that.

[00:42:11] That's how to build trust and trust essentially leads to, to accountability and high performing team. Go figure.

[00:42:17] Hey Kings and Queens, Chaz Wolf. I want to talk to you about something that's super important to me. We put a lot of time and effort, we meaning myself and my team into this podcast, into the content that goes out every single day. And if you have been getting any sort of value or insight from this, we want it to be able to reach other business owners too.

[00:42:36] So we would love if you would like comment, share, leave a review, post, share again, all of the things. On social media, on all the different platforms, or even on the podcast mediums of Apple and Spotify. We would love to be able to get our content into more hands, more entrepreneurs, so they can grow their business as quick as possible.

[00:42:55] Together, we are building a community of like minded entrepreneurs who are committed to [00:43:00] growing their businesses to new heights. So let's do this. Let's help each other grow.

[00:43:04] Chaz Wolfe: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Well, Alex, you've got, you've got this incredible system. You know, obviously you've got the experience to be able to kind of, like you said rip out the silence in the team and build trust. What's the best way, like, if listeners right now, they're, they're drawn to you get ahold of you, I'll give you that chance here in a second, but what's the best way that someone can interact with you?

[00:43:25] Like, if they're going to, if they, if they have a team and, and, and maybe it's not high performing yet and they're thinking, if I reached out to Alex, maybe he could help me. What, what could that look like? Is that a, is that a, you coming to them? Is that a, is that a virtual thing? Is that you working with a team?

[00:43:40] Like, what does it typically look like when you're working with your clients? Silence.

[00:43:44] Alex Draper: Ah, good question. So. It starts with data because usually when someone comes to us, Alex, I've got this problem and my, my team aren't doing this. And I think it's this, like, we don't have a vision or it's clear. We've got a clarity issue. We've got a relationship. I think it's relationships. As soon as I say the word, I think I'm [00:44:00] like, ah, that's an assumption.

[00:44:01] So data, we have a validated diagnostic that comes with care. So each quad, each dimension has a set of questions that goes to all team members. It's we set it up to create that psychological safety so that it breeds honesty with a system for how to do that. But really that data, the diagnostic then gives us a starting point of woof.

[00:44:22] Look at that question number 23. Look at that. It's, it's scoring 3. 2. The average should be about 4. 5. That's probably the problem that, well, that is the problem we need to isolate. So we start with data. We really find out what is the, where's the biggest variance between what people get and what people need in those four dimensions with the specific questions.

[00:44:42] When we find out that data, we then coach and work with the, both the leader and the team. We've got some experiential learning activities. We've got some coaches. We, we basically work it. We then do the data again after about 90 days, what tends to happen, that variant shifts, goes down like, woohoo, [00:45:00] we did it.

[00:45:01] But if you're saying yes to this, you're going to say no to something else. So then, oh my gosh, clarity is now an issue. Look, question number two popped up. Oh, okay, let's fix that. And what tends to happen is if you think about the system that we've created, Continuous improvement never stops. I think that in my industry issue is they go, let's fix this problem with training.

[00:45:20] And they do this one off can tick box crap. And what happens? Nothing changes, man. Looks good. Feels good. So it's got to be continual. So working with us is a continual system of continually using the data to isolate the problem. Spending, just fixing that particular problem with some coaching, giving them some tips, doing it and just doing it every 90 days.

[00:45:43] We're, we're big EOS fans. So we got the EOS system for our business. This is just EOS, but for the people stuff, collect the, collect the data, get your 90 day rocks, work on the rocks. Get the data again, new 90 day rocks, but now on culture and leadership. So that's sort of our [00:46:00] systemized approach to working with teams.

[00:46:02] Chaz Wolfe: yeah, I love that. I always like to try to give a perspective, you know, especially if it's something that you know, some of the listeners might be thinking about. You know, reaching out to you for sometimes that's a gap, you know, when people are like, man, I don't really know, you know, so I appreciate you sharing a little bit of that.

[00:46:14] I think data is huge, especially for organizations that have people you know, a big team, you know, even if it's just a team of 10, but 10, 20, 50, 150 data, data data never lies people often do, but, but data never does. So, how can the listener reach out to you? How can they find you? Where can they follow you for more information?

[00:46:34] Alex Draper: Yeah. Read the book, Care to Win, check it out on Amazon. So Care to Win, Alex Draper, you'll find it there. The book has a website, so if you want to find out more and just get curious, download a chapter and watch some of the videos, it's alex draper. com. Follow me on LinkedIn. the best place I post every day about all of this stuff.

[00:46:52] I'm just sharing information without any sales attached to it. So follow me on LinkedIn, alexdraper at DX. And you can [00:47:00] DM me there if you want to contact me. And if you're just curious about sort of the. The programs and what we do, it's dx learning. com.

[00:47:07] Chaz Wolfe: I love it. Well, Alex, you've been incredible. You've obviously got just some, some amazing tools. You know exactly what you're talking about. I've enjoyed this conversation. I hope that the listeners take you up on that. At least grab the book to show the link for the Amazon. Purchase opportunity will be in the show notes for them to be able to just easily grab that and hope that they do.

[00:47:25] So thanks for being here, brother. Blessings to you and all that you've got going on here in 2025. Appreciate you being here, man.

[00:47:31] Alex Draper: So, thanks for having me. I really enjoyed the conversation and good luck to you all out there.

[00:47:34] Thank you for listening to driven to win. I hope that you were able to pull out a few nuggets to go apply into your business right away. More importantly, though, I hope that you're realizing that it takes more to be successful than just being by yourself, doing it all on your own, carrying the weight all by yourself.

[00:47:52] What I have realized, not only in my own journey from multiple businesses and multiple different industries, and now interviewing over two or [00:48:00] 300. Other very successful seven, eight and nine figure business owners is that it's tough to do it alone. And so gathering the Kings exists to bring together successful entrepreneurs.

[00:48:09] In fact, we are putting together 1000 Kings specifically who are grateful, but not done. We're intentionally assembling Kings who fight tooth and nail for their business, family, and communities. And here's what we believe that in the pursuit of excellence in those areas. That it ignites within us the responsibility to govern power and forge a lasting legacy.

[00:48:33] So if that relates and resonates with you and you know that you need people around you, sharp, qualified, other very successful business owners, I want you to go to gathering the kings.com. I want you to take a look at what we're doing and see if it makes sense for you to be part of our pursuit to 1000 Kings Talk soon.

In this episode of Driven To Win, Chaz Wolfe sits down with Alex Draper, CEO of DX Learning, to reveal the leadership formula that transforms teams into high-performing powerhouses. Alex shares his CARE framework (Clarity, Autonomy, Relationships, Equity) and explains why most business owners unintentionally create toxic environments—costing them money, time, and top talent. If you're struggling with team engagement, trust, or scaling your business, this episode is packed with actionable insights to help you build a winning culture that drives results.

Alex Draper:

Website: https://alex-draper.com
Website: https://www.dx-learning.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-draper/

Chaz Wolfe:
Link tree: https://linktr.ee/chazwolfe
Website: http://www.gatheringthekings.com
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/chazwolfe/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/gatheringthekings
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gtkfamilymastermind
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chaz-wolfe-86767054/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/gatheringthekings/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@gtkfamilymastermind
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCM1-6UfgrdBzqk1k20VJgXQ